Unsung Tone/Symphonic Poems?

[Alan Howe]

Please can reasons be given for choices, otherwise all we end up with is lists, lists and more lists...

[Joachim Raff]

Bantock: The Witch of Atlas Tone Poem for Orchestra

He is my favourite British composer and i think its a marvellous piece of music.

[Gareth Vaughan]

Can you tell us what makes it "marvellous" for you? I would say that what I personally find marvellous about Bantock's music is his colourful and atmospheric orchestration; and about "The Witch of Atlas" in particular its ability to reflect through impressionistic tone colouring the mysterious and multi-hued imagery of Shelley's poem.

[Alan Howe]

Quite so, Gareth. Coherent reasons, please!

[Joachim Raff]

Bantock does not need words to describe his music. Marvellous is suffice.

[Wheesht]

With respect, just saying 'I think it is marvellous" is not very helpful for those who may want to discover works that are new for them. It may not always be easy to describe in words what one finds attractive about a certain piece of music, but I think it definitely contributes to an informed discussion if reasons are given. The same is true for music that one does not like, reasons help understand what the other persons thinks.

[Adrian Harrison]

I have some sympathy with Alan's and Gareth's view but it does seem to me that there is a dichotomy here, best summed up by Felix Mendelssohn:

Die Leute beklagen sich gewöhnlich, die Musik sei so vieldeutig; es sei so zweifelhaft, was sie sich dabei zu denken hätten, und die Worte verstände doch ein Jeder. Mir geht es aber gerade umgekehrt. Und nicht blos mit ganzen Reden, auch mit einzelnen Worten, auch die scheinen mir so vieldeutig, so unbestimmt, so mißverständlich im Vergleich zu einer rechten Musik, die einem die Seele erfüllt mit tausend besseren Dingen als Worten. Das, was mir eine Musik ausspricht, die ich liebe, sind mir nicht zu unbestimmte Gedanken, um sie in Worte zu fassen, sondern zu bestimmte. (People often complain that music is too ambiguous, that what they should think when they hear it is so unclear, whereas everyone understands words. With me, it is exactly the opposite, and not only with regard to an entire speech but also with individual words. These, too, seem to me so ambiguous, so vague, so easily misunderstood in comparison to genuine music, which fills the soul with a thousand things better than words. The thoughts which are expressed to me by music that I love are not too indefinite to be put into words, but on the contrary, too definite.)

Letter to Marc-André Souchay, October 15, 1842, cited from Briefe aus den Jahren 1830 bis 1847 (Leipzig: Hermann Mendelssohn, 1878) p. 221; translation from Felix Mendelssohn (ed. Gisella Selden-Goth) Letters (New York: Pantheon, 1945) pp. 313-14.

All right, back to Unsung Tone/Symphonic Poems...

[Joachim Raff]

Well said Adrian and of course Felix Mendelssohn 

I believe in exploring music by ear not what others think is desirable or not. I have been on plenty of forums where folk have rubbished a composer or a piece of music, only for myself to have a compete different view. Bantock is marvellous in my opinion, i have other words i can use, but that may diminish my point.

[Mark Thomas]

No, sorry, telling us that you think it's marvellous tells us only that you think it marvellous. That's great, and if everyone knew you intimately, your preferences, background, education and experience then we'd have a yardstick to give your judgement some value. As it is, we don't, and so calling a work "marvellous", without the slightest attempt at justifying that superlative, is completely worthless to anyone else.

[Alan Howe]

Marvellous is suffice

Huh?

Die Leute beklagen sich gewöhnlich, die Musik sei so vieldeutig; es sei so zweifelhaft, was sie sich dabei zu denken hätten, und die Worte verstände doch ein Jeder. Mir geht es aber gerade umgekehrt. Und nicht blos mit ganzen Reden, auch mit einzelnen Worten, auch die scheinen mir so vieldeutig, so unbestimmt, so mißverständlich im Vergleich zu einer rechten Musik, die einem die Seele erfüllt mit tausend besseren Dingen als Worten. Das, was mir eine Musik ausspricht, die ich liebe, sind mir nicht zu unbestimmte Gedanken, um sie in Worte zu fassen, sondern zu bestimmte.

Of course, what Mendelssohn wrote proves rather more than you want it to prove. What he's actually saying is that the meaning of the music that one loves is beyond words altogether - in which case to say anything at all in words is pointless.

Mendelssohn was a great composer and, of course, in a sense the essence of music is always beyond words - which is why we love it so much. However, just because he was a great composer doesn't make all his writings on music correct, otherwise there would be no such thing as musicology - and this website would simply be surplus to requirements. But this website proves that there is such a thing as reasoned opinion, i.e. views which contributors try, often successfully, to explain in words.

So, words may ultimately be inadequate to the task of expressing our thoughts about music, but let's give it a go, eh?

[Gareth Vaughan]

calling a work "marvellous", without the slightest attempt at justifying that superlative, is completely worthless to anyone else.

Entirely correct, Mark. If you want to persuade someone else of the merits of any work of art, it is certainly not sufficient to say "I like it" (which is what calling it "marvellous" amounts to).

[Joachim Raff]

I was not persuading everyone to listen to the tone poem. It was my opinion. There are some in thread that listed many tone poems. Probably their favourites with no explanation about why it is their preference. That is ok, because i get off my backside and do some investigation myself. I do not need any endorsements about their favourites. I think people should do more listening to music and less talking. Please lets have a little more tolerance with folk and their posts. 

[Alan Howe]

That's an awful lot of talking about not talking about the music you like. Come, come: tell us why you like what you like!

[Mark Thomas]

less talking

Rather defeats the object of online forums, don't you think?

[Justin]

Bantock is marvellous in my opinion, i have other words i can use, but that may diminish my point.

But the thing is that we don't know what your point is. One word doesn't give us anything to grab onto.

If anything, providing a well thought out reason (doesn't have to be an essay) for your recommendations allows our fellow members to appreciate it more, or begin to appreciate it by revisiting with a different viewpoint and inspired analysis.

I think Mark did use the word "marvelous" once to describe a Raff symphony, but I could be wrong.