Who would you consider a Brucknerian composer?

Started by swanekj, Thursday 08 July 2010, 01:53

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Alan Howe

I agree with your thoughtful analysis, X. Trapnel.

britishcomposer

So do I! Magnard is not a bundle of influences but a unique figure with an own vision. One may hear influences of Bruckner or Mahler but they don't irritate as in so many minor masters.

eschiss1

Was thinking again about the differences between "Brucknerian" and "Mahlerian" when listening to Abbado's DG recording of Mahler's 7th. An extreme case (1st movement particularly) and his performance somewhat highlights these aspects - but this is the sort of thing - the juxtapositions of sudden high register and sudden low, the woodwind shrieks, the dissonance, the...- that get Shostakovich after his symphony 3 and Weinberg pegged as Mahlerian more than Brucknerian, and rightly so, I think (and they both, before they met, knew their Mahler, or so I gather.) 

Qualities and formal features Bruckner introduced that have been pointed out to me include (these were described not as defects but as interesting innovations, and I incline to agree- and they were influential) a tendency toward blocks of sound separated by more or less silent pauses (for example).  (Definitely hear something of this in Reger's works of a certain period too, I think...)

Not to say that it's even easy or possible to be too precise here though I do want to try to make the - well, adjectives(!?!?!?) - less interchangeable - it seems odd to think of them as though they were so.

Revilod

McEwen's Symphony definitely shows the influence of Bruckner....but also of Debussy. It's an unlikely synthesis but a successful one.

reineckeforever

some passages of Joseph Marx's Herbst Symphonie are, IMHO, brucknerian. I think especially to contrapuntal complexity in slow parts..

eschiss1

further on Mahlerian though (though that did have its own thread- sorry!) Allan Pettersson (Swedish, 1911-1980) is sometimes put here for better or worse reasons; a very good Segerstam-conducted broadcast performance of his 4th symphony (1958-59) (pace Mark Shanks) makes it (and him) seem a candidate for this category (and the work seem clearer than I seem to recall it did in the cpo recording, to be fair. Don't know Comissiona's recording, though I think the local university library does have it. Wish someone would release the recording I have in a similar set commemorating the Norrköping Symphony (actually, I think there has been such a set, and it didn't include it... unfortunate... maybe some other time :) It really is an excellent performance- and does highlight the Mahlerian aspects of the work - for instance, again, those high wind shrieks :), and also those quiet chorales - without slighting or hiding the discontinuities (well, not in principle "un"Mahlerian), percussion outbursts (Nielsen x n? ... just joking.) (In seriousness, a lot more going on in this piece than sums of any influences, though I feel I could make a case for its inclusion in some slightly extended way in a "Romantic" forum- both in harmonic progression and especially in affect (word chosen advisedly. then again, in effect too?). Even the odd ending - not the same reason as some similar endings in late Liszt maybe (maybe not?...) )

Latvian

Try the slow movement of Stjepan Sulek's 7th Symphony. If that's not Brucknerian, I don't know what is! I'm not kidding!

vandermolen

Agree about Hans Rott. Try the symphonies of Brun.

izdawiz

If no one's said it, I'd say Paul Von Klenau in his symphonies.. Just listening to the 1st mvnt of the 7th symphony and I hear touches of Bruckner.


adriano

I disagree on this general judgement of the Symphonies of Fritz Brun! This is ridiculous. Brun has a particular build-up section in the first movement of his 4th Symphony where he deals with Bruckner, and he even explains (in a letter, see the liner notes of my CD), how just with this work he reaches to get rid of Bruckner - and how (his previous 3 Symphonies, actually, were all other than Brucknerian, but he means that in a general "attitude-like" way).
Some of his other Symphonies have definitely more Brahmsian passages, but also intentionally used, sometimes with a twinkle in his eye. I consider that Brun's most Brucknerian passage occurs in the Finale of his 7th Symphony, but there too, it's not a plagiarism; I consider it a good-humoured "homage" - and, anyway, it's theme is differently developed.
Since an ignorant German writer once stated in Wikipedia that Brun's work is in the style of Bruckner (this before all Symphonies were available on CD), such nonsense is still being ruminated over and over again today.
I also disagree on an earlier statement in this thread, that Furtwängler's Second Symphony is in the style of Bruckner. Usually, this is being said just because the Symphony is of a Brucknerian lenght. Again: listen carefully to the music, and, if you are always in need to judge composers depending on influences from others, explain exactly where and why this is occurring - and also why this eventually makes you think that the composer is of minor value. Today, nobody would dare to say: "Beethoven?? Pah, he just comes from Haydn!". But less-known composers are mostly judged this way, Musicologists and music lovers can, apparently, not find better arguments...
Funny: Just yesterday, by listening to Vaughan Williams's D Major Quintet, I heard Smetana's "Bartered Bride" Overture in a fugato section...

Alan Howe

I completely agree with Adriano. I can really only think of Wetz and Scherber. Adriano, what would you say?

adriano

Scherber in any case! But it was his serious intention to do so, not a cheap - or devote - imitation; one could even consider it a modern "re-consideration". Of course, his First Symphony is less "experienced" than the two following. The latter can be still considered as very original works.
Wetz: I don't know him well enough (yet)...


Alan Howe

My general feeling is that this thread has simply proved that there are no Brucknerian composers, except for Scherber, whose intention to imitate his great predecessor was deliberate (as Adriano has said) - and maybe Wetz.