Who says who is an unsung composer and who says he is a sung

[Alan Howe]

As to Brahms, I wonder how many of his detractors have heard a note of his chamber music

Didn't Wagner consider Brahms' orchestral music to be essentially chamber music writ large?

[eschiss1]

I see this line mentioned a few places, but no source in Wagner's writings (or of someone who knew him)... hrm. Still, haven't really looked yet...

[eschiss1]

Ah, seems to come from a 1879 Wagner essay "On the application of music to [the] drama" (English translation of title), according to a 2006 book containing a discussion of the essay. Ok- sorry 'bout...

[eschiss1]

Two things, though...
(1) The same 2006 book claims (uniquely, except - hopefully? - for the 1879 essay itself, which I'll try to find) that Wagner was referring to Brahms' (figurative) school, not just to Brahms, symphonically speaking.* (Though the date is suggestive, and the discussion at that point in the book has to do with Wagner's intentions, the why of the title, etc.)
(2) Brahms wrote at least one orchestral work that wasn't like a chamber work writ large, it was a chamber work writ large, though I don't know if Wagner knew that...

*Yes, yes, I know, some of whom began composing symphonies before they ever met Brahms. Unfortunately, I'm guessing Wagner mentioned Gernsheim, Herzogenberg or others by name in this essay, or at least Wagner scholars might have taken some interest in them, as see piano-and-lieder recordings of people slightly associated with Wagner (admittedly, in person) in recent years...

[Alan Howe]

The question, though, is what Wagner was trying to say...

[dwshadle]

Wagner is indeed suggesting that Brahms's symphonies (and those by others) are overblown chamber music. Here he is in the midst of describing the history of symphonic music:

"The said symphonic compositions of our newest school—let us call it the Romantic-classical—are distinguished from the wild-stock of our so-called Programme-music not only by the regretted absence of a programme, but in especial by a certain clammy cast of melody which its creators have transplanted from their heretofore retiring "Chamber-music." To the "Chamber," in fact, one had withdrawn. Alas! not to the homely room where Beethoven once poured into the ears of few and breathless friends all that Unutterable he kept for understanding here alone, instead of in the ample hall-space where he spoke in none but plastic masses to the Folk, to all mankind: in this hallowed "chamber" silence long had reigned; for one now must hear the master's so-called "last" Quartets and Sonatas either badly, as men played them, or not at all—till the way at last was shewn by certain outlawed renegades, and one learnt what that chamber-music really said. No, those had already moved their chamber to the concert-hall: what had previously been dressed as Quintets and the like, was now served up as Symphony: little chips of melody, like an infusion of hay and old tea-leaves, with nothing to tell you what you are swallowing but the label "Best"; and all for the acquired taste of World-ache."

(From the William Ashton Ellis translation, bold added to emphasize the point at hand)

[dwshadle]

The question, though, is what Wagner was trying to say...

Ha! Always the challenge.

[Alan Howe]

little chips of melody

Therein lies a clue, methinks. Wagner's soundscape was that of unendliche Melodie, not 'little chips'...

[dwshadle]

little chips of melody

Therein lies a clue, methinks. Wagner's soundscape was that of unendliche Melodie, not 'little chips'...

Exactly. My sense, too, is that he's referring to pervasive motivic development.

[eschiss1]

Not too surprisingly, a few decades later (if not sooner) you get music that manages to sound like it takes from both (imho) (see: openings of e.g. Magnard's 2nd symphony, Enesco's 3rd symphony, other works, I think... germinating motives but also very very much the twistiness and long-breathedness of endless melody...)

[Alan Howe]

I've often thought that it would be an interesting task to trace the influence of Wagner's concept of unending melos on composers of symphonies. But it's probably already been done...

[Alan Howe]

Bruckner certainly comes to mind. As do Damrosch and Cliffe.

[eschiss1]

(Edit) d'Indy?...

[Alan Howe]

Yup. Franck?

[Double-A]

I can't help making the point that the translation of "unendliche Melodie" ought to be infinite melody, not endless melody; endless is only another word for boring, which I doubt Wagner had in mind.
Anyway every melody ends at some point, Wagner's as well as anybody else's.