American Orchestras' Dismal Future

[Alan Howe]

I for one don't miss the weedy sound of French bassoons and horns; nor do I regret the disappearance of braying Russian horns and piercing Russian trumpets. Never did like any of them...

[Double-A]

I for one don't miss the weedy sound of French bassoons and horns; nor do I regret the disappearance of braying Russian horns and piercing Russian trumpets. Never did like any of them...

I don't know about national differences in sound, but I agree in principle:  "Sound" is overvalued; the important stuff happens below the surface.  And if anything I'd like the sound to reflect the music being played rather than some idiosyncrasy of an orchestra (or chamber music ensemble).  I'd like contrapuntal sections to sound transparent and chordal sections full and warm, Onslow rather like water color and a late romantic more like oil paint.

I don't know how to do this myself but I have heard it done.  (Of course the composer makes a start with his instrumentation.)

[Alan Howe]

...having said which, I prefer Sibelius not to sound too plush (as in Berlin - Lahti makes more sense), Wagner with Vienna Philharmonic horns, and Dvorak with ever-so-piquant-sounding Czech Philharmonic woodwind. So some orchestral distinctives are better than others...

But I'll take Rufinatscha played well by anyone. And didn't the Siberian SO do a marvellous job with Bargiel on Toccata?

[MartinH]

Always looking for the next new thing, I have in recent years picked up a lot of recordings that use supposedly the same type of instruments some music was originally written for, or at least the type the composer would have had in mind. Hearing Ravel with real French bassons, a real Sarrusophone, and such is ear-opening, to say the least. Tchaikovsky and Elgar wrote for orchestras which at the time would have used the French system. I haven't heard the Elgar symphonies on historical instruments, but it's likely someone will tackle it.

I know what you mean about the "plush" sounds of orchestras. That Vienna, Philadelphia sound. I've really enjoyed smaller orchestras taking on big repertoire. The Mackerras sets of Brahms and Beethoven are, to my ears, an ideal balance between the over-sized orchestra and the HIP versions.

[eschiss1]

In some sense those composers were writing for different balances and even instruments (even when the names were the same) so that makes sense.

[sdtom]

Shouldn't these comments be in a different thread or how does this tie in to the demise of the American Orchestra?

[Alan Howe]

We've been ranging far and wide for some time now, so let's just see where thread goes...

[sdtom]

What I said was partly in jest, just adding a bit of humor

[Double-A]

Shouldn't these comments be in a different thread or how does this tie in to the demise of the American Orchestra?

Here is how it ties in:  It was suggested that the loss of individual orchestra "sounds" is part of the decline of the orchestra in the US (and, I may be allowed to add, elsewhere).  I tried to point out that this sound problem--if it is important--is the last thing to worry about in the context of the thread.

[sdtom]

It does make sense to me now

[giles.enders]

Part of the reason for the decline in the American orchestras, is that they were over unionised and very greedy. If say the conductor wanted an extra ten minutes to rehearse, the union would demand overtime and for the full hour, multiply that by 90 and the cost becomes astronomical.  Similarly for the actual performance, the length of the concert = how much the performers had to be paid.  It is also the case that poor performers are very difficult to get rid of in the US.

[eschiss1]

Is this a quote, is it based on research you have done, have you been there first-hand, Mr. Enders? It sounds rather certain, and I can say it is not quite so certain. (Actually, I could say more, but then I will be told to keep politics out of this, reasonably enough. Carry on then, I suppose, as you may continue and I may not.)

[MartinH]

Mr Enders is correct. I have been in rehearsals where the orchestra manager sits with a clock. When 2 1/2 hours are reached he signals the conductor that time's up. Rehearsal stops mid-measure and people pack up. I've seen conductors plead with the orchestra to just give 5 minutes to finish the movement - but it won't happen unless the overtime fees are agreed to and managers aren't about to do that. Sometime ago I was at a supposedly "complete" Tchaikovsky Sleeping Beauty - but it was savagely cut to fit in the union-required time frame - can't go one minute over or overtime is due. I remember one performance where a horn player was stuck in traffic and the conductor refused to start until he was there - all the while people were watching the clock because if he didn't arrive by a certain time the concert would run overtime. He barely made it.

As to removing weak players there is a formal process that the AFM demands orchestras follow. When you get the written letter explaining your deficiencies it has become serious and you had better pay attention. And it depends on how strong your local union is in whether you can expect their help. If you play in a right-to-work state or your orchestra doesn't have a union rep, you're at the mercy of the music director or manager and I've seen many, many people let go from groups for all kinds of reasons.

I have mixed feelings about unions in music. Unfortunately, the restrictive rules all but destroyed the classical recording business. 50 years ago it seemed the great orchestras in Cleveland, New York, Philadelphia, and Boston turned out a dozen records a month. That stopped 20-30 years ago: it cost too much. Cheaper to go to east Europe. Now some of them are trying to sell recordings on their own, but it's too little, too late, I fear.

[Double-A]

I believe we can all agree that unions are at most a minor contributor to the malaise that is the topic of this thread and get back to more important aspects.

[giles.enders]

In reply to eschis,  I know of a number of soloist musicians who have had trouble with rehearsals in the US because of union restrictions on time, I have also attended a concert in LA where were the interval was cut short so that the performing time would not over run and the audience were invited to stay afterwards and continue with their wine.   No recording company can afford to use US orchestras because of cost and union restrictions. The sad fact is, that US sponsors would rather put their money elsewhere.  As anywhere, people will attend concerts, opera and ballet if the price is right and the music is something they want to hear.  If you price people out, then they lose the drive that makes them want to be part of the music ritual and other interests fill the void in their lives.