César Franck Violin Concerto!

[eschiss1]

(The history of the string quartet and quintet in mid-19th century France still seems looking into to me despite the absence of Fauré and other especially well-known, major composers - one still has works by Vaucorbeil (pub.1858 by Heugel), the quartets Opp.10 and quintet Op.22 of Deldevez (pub. 1857 and 1864 by Richault), the 3 string quartets of Jacques Rosenhain (published in the 1860s by Richault), etc. and for example. (And Tellefsen's 1st piano concerto was published by Richault in the 1850s. I'm probably misunderstanding something here of course.)

[matesic]

Another over-simplistic generalization might be to suggest that in France the post-1880 generation of composers were mostly also performing pianists, in contrast to the violinist-composers who had dominated the platform during the earlier part of the century.

[Revilod]

Well, Michael Stegemann, in his book "Camille Saint-Saens and the French Solo Concerto" lists as many violin concertos (i.e. works with the word "concert/concerto" in the title) from the thirty years before 1880 as the thirty years after. It's true that his is only a representative sample and Stegemann's definition of a "French" concerto is a bit arbitrary but it just seems that the casualty rate for French violin concertos after 1880 was particularly high. With our interest in neglected composers, we know how much music is written but soon forgotten!

[matesic]

It seems a shame to spoil a debate with brute facts, but Stegemann's book does seem to target precisely this issue! I just ordered a second-hand copy from Abebooks for next to nothing. I wonder how much of this music was published?

[Alan Howe]

I've ordered a second-hand copy for less than £1 on Amazon. Interesting...

[violinconcerto]

Well, Michael Stegemann, in his book "Camille Saint-Saens and the French Solo Concerto" lists as many violin concertos (i.e. works with the word "concert/concerto" in the title) from the thirty years before 1880 as the thirty years after. It's true that his is only a representative sample and Stegemann's definition of a "French" concerto is a bit arbitrary but it just seems that the casualty rate for French violin concertos after 1880 was particularly high.

That would be interesting if I list as many violin concertos as Stegemann. I only cover the years 1894 to 1910 and that is not too much:

1894 Theodore Dubois - VC
1896 Emile Louis Mathieu - VC
1902 Frederic d'Erlanger - VC
1903 Fernand Le Borne (born in Belgium, but worked mainly in France) - Symphony-concerto for violin, piano and orchestra

I've ordered a second-hand copy for less than £1 on Amazon. Interesting...

So Alan, I would be pleased if you could compare my tiny list with the one by Stegemann and tell me the ones I am missing.

Best,
Tobias

[Alan Howe]

D'Erlanger was really only half French. He became a naturalised Brit.

[matesic]

A 2012 recording of the Dubois concerto is available in mp3 format from amazon.com (not amazon.co.uk). The CD isn't such a bargain as Stegemann's book - used copies can be had for $146.56 or $455.74!

[Revilod]

Between 1894 and 1910 Stegemann lists (a representative list only): J.B. Accolay: Violin Concerto in D (1895), J.B. Accolay: Violin Concerto in E minor (1899), Louis Grobet: Violin Concerto in D minor (1899), J.G. Pennequin : Violin Concerto in A minor (1903) and Frederic Guiraud: Violin Concerto in A minor (1909).

I don't know whether all these composers were really French as Stegemann also includes in his "French" list D'Erlanger (only half French as Alan says) and Jaques-Dalcroze (Swiss as I've recently been reminded!)

The book itself (a translation) isn't always illuminating as regards the politics of concerto writing and performing at the time. Stegemann says (P 199) that, "The years between 1871 and World War I brought a new flowering of concertante music all over Europe" but (P 211) he talks about how, in France, concertante music was dying out well before the war. Debussy famously stopped the performance of his Fantaisie ( which was in the traditional three movements) in 1889 because he didn't want to be seen as a musical reactionary. I think , then, that although the renewed interest in abstract instrumental music after the Franco-Prussian War was intended, as Stegemann says (P.199),  to ensure French music would "gain international recognition", it didn't last long once Debussy's ideas were beginning to take hold.

Stegemann has some interesting comments on unknown concertos. He is particularly keen on a piano concerto by Leon Moreau (1903), modelled on Saint-Saens' Fourth but poor old Massenet come in for a drubbing, especially that rather attractive "Fantaisie for 'Cello and Orchestra" which he calls "deplorable" and "dull". Harsh!!

[violinconcerto]

Thanks revilod for the information!

I already knew the Grobet concerto but did not know a year of compisition, thanks for that!

I wasn't aware of the violin concertos by Pennequin (who was Belgian by birth btw) and Frederic Guiraud. In fact I could not even find any information about a "Frederic Guiraud". Does the book deliver some biographical information?

The dates given for the concertos are actually publishing dates for the scores. For the Accolay I am not sure if the two latter concerti are really composed in 1895 and 1899 (with the first one created in 1868). I checked worldcat and saw that for example the second concerto in e minor was published in 1895 with the note "edition revue et doigtée par L. Wiemann" (revised edition and fingerings by L. Wiemann). So if there was time for a revision the whole work dates maybe from an earlier time. Does anyone here have more serious information on the work catalogue by Accolay (especially the violin concertos)?

In total, thanks a lot for some new input for my encyclopedia!

Best,
Tobias

[Revilod]

I made a little slip, Tobias. I misread the name. Sorry! It was Frederic Giraud, not Guiraud. I was, of course, thinking he had the same surname as Ernest, the composer best known for adding orchestral recitatives to "Carmen".  The book says nothing at all about Frederic except that the violin concerto is his Op 12.

[violinconcerto]

Ahh, thanks for the corrections. Frederic Giraud (1827-1917) was indeed a French composer and violinist I see, but if his violin concerto is his op.12 and he was born 1827 it is very unlikely he composed the concerto in 1909. Infact worldcat lists a first release of the score by Hamelle in 1886 and thst just the release. So it is uncertain when the work was really composed.

[eschiss1]

Re Grobet's 1899-composed violin concerto:
BNF lists its violin/piano accompaniment as having been -published- in 1898 (by Quinzard), so, er, that's odd! (Of course, maybe he composed more than one concerto. That seems a good explanation...)
Ah, ok, "The dates given for the concertos are actually publishing dates for the scores." - yes, I thought that would be true. (Though some libraries do have the manuscripts, and the Widor violin concerto, for example, has not yet been published (to my knowledge) so the only date that one could have would be that on the BNF-held manuscript... but to all generalizations except this one there may possibly be an exception, except when there isn't )
Ernest Guiraud in turn had his violin and pf/or/orch caprice which was published- hrm- I think I had an approximate date (from BdlF) for that once... (oh. Worldcat gives Durand, [1884].)

Perhaps more interesting- do the orchestra-accompanied versions of student-intended works by Accolay, Seitz, etc. (sticking to French ones for the porpoises of the conversation) generally come from others or from the composers themselves?

Georges-Jean Pfeiffer (1835-1908) is one mid-century French composer e.g. (besides Saint-Saëns, and an exact birth-contemporary yes- well, year, anyways) who did write several concertos (at least 3 for piano?) and chamber works (2(+?) piano trios (no.2 @ IMSLP as is his piano quartet and quintet), duo sonatas...), though perhaps no violin concertos- would have to check.

de Boisdeffre (1838-1906) comes in a very little later (and wrote 3 violin sonatas, 2 piano trios, 2 piano quintets, etc.)

I think there's a book I saw in passing on chamber music in France in the mid-19th century; I should look again. Besides Alkan's and some other -now- semi-well-known suspects, I mean...

[matesic]

If Alan's copy of Stegemann's survey of French concertante works from 1850 to 1920 arrived as quickly as mine, both he and Revilod will be able to confirm that there is a clear and specific decline in the popularity of the violin concerto after 1900. When you add up the works written in each decade (excluding those of Saint-Saens, who wrote enough to thoroughly skew the sample!) it's very evident that prior to 1880 more violin concertos were produced than either piano or cello concertos. From 1880 onwards piano concertos become and remain the most popular, declining somewhat from their 1880's peak, while violin concertos reach their peak in the 1890's. After 1900 violin concertos are markedly less common than even cello concertos, particularly from 1910 to 1920 when they account for only 1 out of 15 works listed. I haven't yet scrutinized the text to see if Stegemann has a theory to account for this!

[JimL]

Touching on Massenet, I have seen that he composed a violin concerto for Henri Marteau in about 1892??  I have seen mention of it, but nobody seems to know what became of it.  I even think I posted an inquiry at the Jules Massenet society without a response.  Does anybody have anything to say about it?