César Franck Violin Concerto!

[Alan Howe]

An orchestration by an unknown hand of the Violin Sonata:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sK3oWwiTVsQ
...with Leonid Kogan, no less, as soloist. Poor sound, but an interesting arrangement. Opinions?

[Double-A]

You don't seem to get much feedback on this, I don't know why.  Maybe because the sonata in its original instrumentation is one the most sung violin sonatas in the repertoire?
Anyhow, before starting I should say that I once worked on it with a pianist (except for the second movement which was beyond reach for the pianist--the violin part is quite playable except a very small number of measures with nasty fast passages), so I know it fairly well.  Generally I would start by saying that I don't think (this) orchestration adds a lot to the piece and sometimes it detracts.
The first movement with its combination of a very simple fully diatonic theme and complex chromatic harmonies comes across quite well; the orchestration is discreet as befits a movement that mostly goes on in piano (with a few tremendous crescendi in between, here not played tremendously enough IMO).  I was surprised at the very moderate tempo Kogan took and was wondering if he would play it faster with just a pianist.  Anyhow this forced him into heavy use of rubato to avoid boredom and I did not find this very appealing.
The second movement is the pianist's in the original: From the piano comes the furious energy and forward drive of the movement and the orchestra in this instrumentation could not match a good pianist in this regard, not even close.  The matter was made worse again by surprisingly slow tempi--not one tempo, it keeps changing along the way, getting to andante and below in the "sweeter" passages in the middle of the movement.  I think this movement in this orchestration is a failure.
By contrast the third movement is dominated by the violin.  The orchestra made it clear that the recitative part of it was accompagnato which I liked.  The soloist was however not convincingly playing recitative (which would require a style of playing that would mimic speech rhythms).  Again the tempo was too slow for my taste and with too much rubato.  But I found the orchestra here convincing, beautiful passages for wind players nicely combined with the violin (maybe  bit more harp that one would like).
Finally the last movement started slow again, but slipped into a good tempo after maybe 25 measures (fault of the conductor who has to take first turn at the canon theme?).  Here I think the orchestration tried to prove too much.  This canon, simple as it is has to dominate the happenings, a French horn playing additional melody (which is in fact just part of the harmonic progression) disturbs rather than helps, especially as the orchestra tended to play its share in the canon too soft (not every time, but too often).  The beautiful enharmonic changes quoted from the third movement were executed strangely; I can not call this rubato any more, this was just arhythmic.
Summary:  A worthwhile effort but also not an easy problem to solve.  If a different, i.e. faster and simpler interpretation might change my impression of the orchestration is hard to tell, but as played I think I am going to stick with Franck's original.

[Alan Howe]

That is an excellent assessment - one with which I broadly agree (while being fascinated by the whole idea...)

[Delicious Manager]

I actually find it hard to believe this is Leonid Kogan playing. The tone is thin, the intonation occasionally suspect and there are uncharacteristic portamenti of the sort one doesn't usually hear in Kogan's superb playing. I suspect an impostor.

[Alan Howe]

Could be. But let's get back to the music...

[Gareth Vaughan]

I haven't heard this, but I feel bound to say: "What is the point?" The violin sonata needs no orchestration. It is a splendid piece in its own right and the piano part works beautifully with the solo instrument. It would be much more valuable if people who want to orchestrate from a piano score spent their time orchestrating the many violin and piano concerti the full scores and/or parts of which have been lost, leaving only the two piano or piano/violin score as an indication of the composer's intentions.

[Alan Howe]

I think the orchestration has merit - not as a replacement for or completion of the original, but as a complement to it.

[musiclover]

A superb suggestion Gareth. Somebody should try to get lottery funding to start such a project so the good people who have completed and orchestrated various works in the past could be commissioned to rescue the various concerti as you suggest. That would be a project indeed!

[Double-A]

I haven't heard this, but I feel bound to say: "What is the point?" The violin sonata needs no orchestration. It is a splendid piece in its own right and the piano part works beautifully with the solo instrument. It would be much more valuable if people who want to orchestrate from a piano score spent their time orchestrating the many violin and piano concerti the full scores and/or parts of which have been lost, leaving only the two piano or piano/violin score as an indication of the composer's intentions.

This was exactly my first thought, but then I figured I better listen to it before making up my mind.  It seems clear to me that taking someone's work and put a new spin on it is legitimate work for artists (not just musicians, actually you probably find more of this sort of thing in literature, say a rewrite of "Emma" from the perspective of the secondary heroine).  I don't think this orchestration here succeeds very well (differently in the different movements depending on their character).  This sonata is different from many others in that it has longish passages for piano solo in it, specially in the first movement.  So you get tutti like in a "real" VC.  Looking at it that way it was a good piece to chose for this exercise (I can't imagine someone doing this with the Kreutzer sonata, in spite of its "concerto style").

I actually find it hard to believe this is Leonid Kogan playing. The tone is thin, the intonation occasionally suspect and there are uncharacteristic portamenti of the sort one doesn't usually hear in Kogan's superb playing. I suspect an impostor.

I don't think portamenti are at all misplaced in this music--and the ones I heard are fine with me.  When I took violin lessons I was trained to make shifts as inaudible as possible and this is a useful skill indeed.  But I have come around to preferring to place shifts in locations where they enhance the phrasing by being very much heard (=portamento).  It is part of the charm of the violin that a robot could not emulate (yet?, hopefully not for a long time).  As for intonation, above a certain level of perfection it is a matter of taste (how much you want to deviate from well-tempered, how sharp you want leading notes to be etc.  Also, tone is important as an element of expression:  Good players alter the tone according to the expression and I think Kogan did that too, though he might have done more of it, e.g. right at he beginning I'd like to hear very discreet vibrato to get a sort of "naive" sound.

[matesic]

From the rather slurry playing I get the feeling Kogan (I'm convinced it is him. Anyway, the performance is included with others by him in the 100-CD "Russian Legends" box from Brilliant Classics) may have slightly over-braced himself in the Green Room before mounting the platform.

This has got me thinking - are there no notable French violin concertos later than Saint-Saens? Someone needs to do some digging, but in the meantime I wouldn't mind hearing an imaginative orchestration of Ravel's sonata.

[jdperdrix]

are there no notable French violin concertos later than Saint-Saens?

What do you mean exactly? After 1880 (3rd violin concerto) or after 1921 (death of Saint-Saëns)?
Do some well-know pieces, such as Chausson's Poème (1896), Massenet's Méditation (1894) or Ravel's Tzigane (1924) qualify as concertos? I admit that proper violin concertos are not very frequent in late romantic French music. I found Godard's n. 2 (1891), Dubois (1896), Hahn (1928) or Gaubert (1929).
And I'm still waiting for a record of Vierne's Ballade (1926)!

[matesic]

I'm thinking of the standard 3-movement form. From the 50 years after Saint-Saens's No.3 there isn't one that I'd recognize a single note of, although I'll lose no time in getting acquainted with Chloe Hanslip's Naxos recordings of Godard. From the next 50 years or so (if I'm briefly allowed to go there..) the best on offer could be the four concertos by Milhaud (anybody?) and maybe those of Sauguet, Francaix, Jolivet and Martinon. Not exactly Premiership material!

[minacciosa]

There are two by Lalo, the first in F being particularly fine.

[jdperdrix]

There are two by Lalo

As matesic is very specific in his criteria, Lalo's concertos don't qualify...
The Concerto op 20 is from 1873, as is the Symphonie espagnole op 21 (which Lalo didn't name concerto, and which counts 5 movements). The Concerto russe op 29 is from 1879 and has 4 movements...

[matesic]

With such a gaping hole to fill, I'm surprised the 1919 concerto of Henri Marteau doesn't appear to have been recorded. Maybe one of the contestants in the next International Violin Competition Henri Marteau might cause a stir by giving it a go? No, of course they won't! I find his string quartets pretty good, and the clarinet quintet enchantingly quirky.