Gernsheim Symphonies 2 & 4

[Alan Howe]

...forthcoming from cpo:
https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/friedrich-gernsheim-symphonien-nr-2-4/hnum/3126659

[petershott@btinternet.com]

I welcome this - along with CPO's previous recording of the 1st and 3rd symphonies we will have another complete set of the four symphonies.

But what is urgently needed are recordings of the five string quartets. Some years ago the Mandelring Quartet recorded the 2nd (Op. 31 in A minor) in their excellent series of the Brahms quartets (where each was coupled with a quartet by another composer). However there are no recordings at all of the remaining four Gernsheim quartets. Given that, thankfully, Gernsheim seems to be enjoying a rediscovery in recent years all these quartets are surely crying out for a recording. Come on, CPO!

[Mark Thomas]

Peter, you might like to try Matesic's fine recordings of the quartets Nos.1, 3 and 5, which are available on each quartet's page at IMSLP.

It's great news about the cpo recording of the symphonies, of course.

[petershott@btinternet.com]

Thanks Mark. I'm aware of those recordings - and appreciate them.

However I think my point still stands: there is a pressing need for good commercial recordings of these quartets. Rightly or wrongly, I believe that only when there is an easily available recording of something do those works or their composer gain currency, other groups take up the works, the word gets around, and then there becomes a decent chance of hearing the works in concert.

Hasn't just this been amply demonstrated by Raff, for example? I appreciate it is a long uphill task, and one still bumps into musicians or concert organisers who mutter 'Who?', but think of how many people (myself included!) were wholly unaware of Raff before we had decent commercial recordings of the symphonies, the chamber music, and the piano music. Those were the dark drab Raffless (as it were!) days and it is was largely commercial recordings (and persistent advocacy of Raff by people such as yourself!) that have got us out of that situation.

Besides, I'm a regular unrepentant fully addicted CD junkie. Nothing can beat the presence of a hard physical CD, and an informative set of notes, in the hands. If more shelves have to be built, well, so be it for that's the cost we gladly bear of being an enthusiast for the music discussed in this forum.

[matesic]

I agree wholeheartedly! It's good to know my bedroom renditions are appreciated as a first impression of how these pieces go, but they certainly aren't intended to substitute for the real thing. Considered as a cycle, Gernsheim's string quartets must be among the most significant by any late 19th century composer, sung or unsung. We are fortunate in having a number of first-rate groups (many of them members of the Assocation of German String Quartets) who are willing to devote considerable time and effort to recording such neglected repertoire, but since they also have to earn a living I guess we just have to be patient and trust that all truly deserving cases will eventually receive some justice.

[Alan Howe]

Returning to the symphonies, the new cpo CD is certainly a great advertisement for this music. The older set under Köhler was excellent, of course, but these performances have a greater richness overall and should certainly be in anyone's collection. What magnificent regional orchestras there are in Germany, by the way. The Philharmonic State Orchestra of Mainz on this evidence are certainly one of them.

[Ilja]

Allow me to slightly disagree here. After repeated listenings, I find the differences between the Baumer and Köhler pretty minimal. Significantly, the length they take to play movements is often only seconds apart. Granted, the CPO recording is better, but there is little between the orchestras. In the Second Symphony I still prefer Köhler because his recording is a bit more lyrical than the more gemessen (sorry, I've been looking for a synonym in English but can't find one) Baumer. In the Fourth, the Baumer gets my thumbs up - but only by a small margin. I would say that if one already has the Köhler recordings, it is not really worthwhile to buy these too. CPO's sonics are a bit better, but again the difference is not impressive according to my ears.

[Alan Howe]

Well, I disagree - mildly. The cpo issue makes the music sound more substantial to my ears. But Köhler v. Bäumer is a pretty even match-up overall.

[Ilja]

A bit of a pity, though. As much as you'd wish a pioneering recording to remain safe, you'd like its successor to look for different approaches. Don't get me wrong, it's a very decent recording, but I would have like liked to hear someone make me discover new aspects of these works.

[Alan Howe]

Well, as I said, to make them sound 'more substantial' isn't a bad achievement on Bäumer's part.

[bulleid_pacific]

Significantly, the length they take to play movements is often only seconds apart.

Is that really significant, though?  I'll wager that there are dozens of recordings of Beethoven 5 which clock movement times within seconds.  I'll also bet that some are superb and others are mediocre (or worse).  I don't think you can pass up performances on the basis that they are too similar in tempo to others - especially when Gernsheim doesn't come along as frequently as London buses...

[eschiss1]

They're not as good as you find Draeseke's symphonies to be, but they're not fluffy (no offense to hardworking intelligent lagomorphy composers...)

[Alan Howe]

Please elaborate, Eric...

[Double-A]

Significantly, the length they take to play movements is often only seconds apart.

Is that really significant, though?  I'll wager that there are dozens of recordings of Beethoven 5 which clock movement times within seconds.  I'll also bet that some are superb and others are mediocre (or worse).  I don't think you can pass up performances on the basis that they are too similar in tempo to others - especially when Gernsheim doesn't come along as frequently as London buses...

I disagree with this:  The choice of tempo is indicative of many other choices a performer makes (such as a preference for expressive detail vs. for the working out of the overall structural features or for driving rhythm vs. clarity of every note).  If performances are within seconds of each other they are ipso facto similar.  And if there are only two recordings out there you would wish them more contrasting with each other.

To make your Beethoven example more applicable to the situation at hand you'd have to randomly select two recordings of the fifth and then compare the times.  What are the chances they will match closely?  Very low I'd wager.

[Alan Howe]

Although the overall timings are similar in some cases, there are significant differences within each symphony.
Comparison table:

                       Köhler              Bäumer
Gernsheim 1
1.                     10.01              15.26         (Bäumer takes the repeat here)
2.*                     8.36               9.44
3.                       7.36               7.39
4.                     11.46              11.59
Gernsheim 2
1.                     11.23              11.23
2.                       4.22               4.02
3.*                     5.37               6.38
4.                       8.28               7.48         
Gernsheim 3
1.                     10.58              11.24
2.*                     6.39               8.24
3.                       4.05               3.53
4.                       8.35               9.16
Gernsheim 4
1.                     11.01              11.27
2.*                     7.55               8.28
3.                       3.35               2.58
4.                       7.56               7.52

Note, in particular, that Bäumer is slower (and grander) in all the slow movements*. He is also in general slower than Köhler in the first and last movements, with the exception of the finale of No.2 (the difference in timing between their performances of the finale of No.4 is negligible). I think, therefore, that there is ample evidence to support my argument that Bäumer's approach over the whole cycle is sufficiently different from Köhler's to justify its existence. To my mind, Bäumer is superior because the symphonies emerge as bigger pieces; the recording quality is also better, as befits a more up-to-date set.