Piano Fantasias

[Richard Moss]

While re-playing some of William Sterndale Bennett's concertos (prompted by the recent UC thread on his anniversary), I played the CD conducted by Wetton that contained his Symphony G min, Pno Conc No. 4 in F min and the solo piano Fantasia.

Although the notes say this is essentially a 'quasi sonata' in 4 movements, much of it struck me as (i) lovely lyrical material and (ii) some passages could easily be taken as the soloist's section within a concerto.

My real question to UC  members is: "Do you have any suggestions for other piano solo music that could be taken for a solo passage in a concerto rather than typical sonata/salon pieces?"

Nearly all the 'romantic' piano concertos that come to mind (e.g. Mendelssohn, Rachmaninov, Paderewski, Chopin and many others) tend to have very beautiful 2nd movements (and sometimes similar sections in the outer movements) and within these, lovely solo individual passages and it is the sound of these passages that I am trying to find in a solo work.

All/any suggestions much appreciated - I am not very familiar with solo works so wouldn't know where to look!

[chill319]

You probably know Chopin's Allegro de concert, opus 46, which even has a double ritornello... Not unsung, to be sure.

[sdtom]

Pictures at an Exhibition?

[eschiss1]

Alkan's solo concerto deliberately has both...

[Richard Moss]

Thanks for the suggestions , guys - will reccy and have a listen.

Best wishes

Richard

[Double-A]

Maybe Chopin's Andante spianato et Grande Polonaise op. 22 belongs here.  It exists in a version for piano solo and one with orchestra.

Only the Polonaise is orchestrated, the orchestra is silent in the andante.  And the orchestration isn't terribly ambitious, over large sections the orchestra just contributes "comments" to the music.  Nonetheless here is an example where the composer offers both solo and orchestra-accompanied versions of the same music (there must be other examples, possibly more elaborate, but I wouldn't know them).  And it is very good music, it is even unsung, at least in the orchestra version, if anything by Chopin can be called that.

We played it in the student orchestra with a wonderful pianist and I have always been fond of it.

Having made this suggestion I am still not clear in my mind what quality you are looking for in the examples you hope to find.  In other words:  What in a passage or movement would make you think:  "Here might be an orchestra, even if silent at the moment"?

[Richard Moss]

In reply to Double-A (my apologies for delaying - it was a very good question and I didn't/still don't have a ready answer!) 

As an enthusiastic but very amateur listener, I'm very ignorant about the structure of music.  I wish I knew what a ritornello was, or the difference between adagio and andante and largo, or say between a symphony and a suite.  The answer is, I suspect, a bit like the same answer as to what is 'romantic' (and I still find quite a bit of stuff labelled 'romantic' not to be that at all).

In terms of solo piano - melody, melody, melody!  I guess there are a lot of similarities between (for me) an enjoyable piano solo and the 'solo' passages in many romantic violin concertos.  No awkward chords, no scratchiness, no technical stuff for the sake of  it (or to help the soloist show-off).  Contrast say Mendelssohn or Bruch with Paganini in this respect.

Most piano sonatas I've got (a few dozen composers at most - e.g. Beethoven, Rachamaninov, Brahms, Scriabin) are not overly melodic in that I would never place them as part of a 'symphonic' work.  On the other hand, some of the music to the film 'Sense and Sensibilty' (albeit piano and orchsetra, not solo) strikes me straight away as the middle movement of a lovely piano concerto and left me wishing to hear the (non-existent) outer movements.

I suspect this is because most solo piano music was written, it seems to me, for a 'salon' environment - i.e. in the style of chamber, not orchestral, music - and this pervades most of the non-orchestral music I've heard.  Even my favourite - Beethoven - falls into this category for his sonatas, whereas say his Choral Fantasy, even with (if I remember) some extended solo piano sections, still feels like it is an orchestral work (or is that just my sub-conscious because I know it is?!).

I think I'll try Chopin first of the suggestions above as I have vague recollections of 50+ years ago of enjoying a 45rpm disc by Moisevitch of his Fantasie Impromptu - hopefully, all melody and harmonious chords and nothing strident or clashing.

I remember in an earlier thread about Draeseke's VC replying  (to Alan or Mark, I think), that having heard the piano/violin duet version, my difficulty then was in mentally envisaging that as an orchestral work and the same applies here in reply to your question.

In short, as best as I can say it,  3 words - melody, lyricism and harmony

Best wishes

Richard
 

[alberto]

The Ballade of Faurè exists both in solo piano and in piano and orchestra version.
Sung on record (more in the piano and orchestra version); relatively unsung in ther hall.

[Gareth Vaughan]

Suggest the Nocturnes of John Field (or Chopin, of course).

[Richard Moss]

I've got Field's Nocturnes (but  had forgotten all about them - will dig them out - tks Gareth).  I'll also see about the solo-piano version of Faure's Ballade (I already have the orchestral version) but I know when I had a four-hands version of one of Cesar Franck's tone poems (Eloides??) it just struck me as 'flat' compared to an orchestral sound.

Anyway, Chopin (and Field) call for now.

Cheers

Richard

[Jonathan]

I'd suggest Liszt's Grossekonzertsolo (S176) which he also orchestrated several times (as Grande Solo de Concert (S365) and Concerto Pathetique (again) (S365b)) and also reworked for 2 pianos as Concerto Pathetique (S258).

Not much time but i am sure i will think of more...

[Double-A]

In short, as best as I can say it,  3 words - melody, lyricism and harmony

For somebody who says he is ignorant you describe it very well!  I think the andante--though unaccompanied--may be right up your alley.  The Polonaise is a bit more assertive--it is a dance after all; besides the piece is designed to show case someone's (originally of course Chopin's) pianistic chops.  It is no piece for pianistic underperformers.  Yet when a lonely horn or bassoon plays some very simple sequence of notes--not even truly a melody--along with the cascades the soloist produces it brings out the melancholy of the piece beautyfully.

[chill319]

When Rachmaninoff was writing his Etudes Tableaux he decided to steal one of them for his Piano Concerto 4. Accordingly, it wasn't included in either of the Etudes Tableaux collections, but it _was_ completed as such and it has been published, I think, and definitely recorded, by Volodos for one. Not a whole concerto, of course, but a very recognizable "set piece" from an increasingly well-known concerto.