Schumann Symphony No. 3 'Rhenish' - orchestration by Veniamin (Benjamin) Tolba

[jasthill]

I ran across this link http://intoclassics.net/news/2016-08-19-41200* featuring a re-orchestration of Schumann's Rhenish Symphony.  Of course there are the Mahler arrangements of the Schumann symphonies variously recorded - but this is a new one to me.  Does anyone know anything about this?  I don't think you could do much with the Schuman symphonies outside of re-assigning some lines to different instruments.  The recorded samples of the Tolba orchestration by an un-named Russian orchestra  are pretty dismal (circa 1961) featuring fruity brass.
Google translate makes a tossed salad of the Russian-Ukrainian text - my favorite part is - " irresistible pathos inspiration, unattainable beauty of the melodic and harmonic side works are always misunderstood by the public, the only consequence of a colorless, solid density of orchestration, persistently annoying auditory nerves very sensitive to music listener beauty ".

*Administrator's Note: My security software advises that the above link is unsafe.

[thalbergmad]

I wonder if the link is unsafe because it is Russian or unsafe because it is Schumann

My feeble "security" detected nothing.

Thal

[Alan Howe]

It's because it's Russian. Caveat surfer!

[ncouton]

Oh, that is interesting.

[Gareth Vaughan]

I wish people would leave Schumann's symphonies alone and just play them! There's a lot more to complain about, if one wants to, in the orchestration of some parts of the Piano Concerto but people don't go around re-orchestrating that.

[Alan Howe]

Quite. Well said.

[adriano]

Gravo, Gareth! 
And hear what wonderful recordings Leoneard Bernstein has made by "just" using the origial orchestrations.
Te later "Urtext" recordings by Douglas Bostock are very good too, but nevere have this inspired aura and "played trough" impact, but that set contains also the separate Scherzo in G minor.
As far as Schumann's Piano Concerto is concerned (don't miss the Lev VinocourRCA boxed set with Schumann's complete works for piano and orchestra, which includes Henselt's and Clara Wieck's pieces), there is nothing which really disturbs me in the orchestration...

[jimsemadeni]

Admittedly I lack of musical sophistication--and have never felt the least unhappy about listening to anything Schumann wrote. Ignorance is bliss? Or is it bliss to hear the magnificent sounds that came from a tortured soul and be happy with them and deeply touched by them? Nor have I heard a reorchestration of Chopin's piano concertos that has meant anything more to me than the originals. I tend to listen to music that makes me feel good, not to that which is "perfect" by some impossible standard. Was it Boulez who thought he was the only one to write music perfectly (and Dutilleux was a reactionary hack)? and rarely does his music make me happy, while much of Dutilleux's does.

[TerraEpon]

I love Shcumann's orchestrations -- they are full of color and....er....fullness. Maybe they were 'bad' in the mid to late 1800s but after 125 years of tons of styles of music that have been added on top of anything they knew back then, I think it's a lot easier to....accept?...the way they sound even if it might not be 'right'. I dunno if I'm explaining this well, probably not.

[Ilja]

This as a question to the likes of Adriano and Christopher: could it be the case that Schumann's orchestration is just more problematic to upscale, due to his use of brass and percussion, to fit larger concert halls while still maintaining a decent orchestral balance? And that this gave rise to his reputation as an problematic orchestrator? People such as Gardiner reject the entire idea of Schumann's orchestral incompetence.

[MartinH]

But it must be admitted that Schumann himself questioned his own ability to orchestrate, never felt comfortable writing for full orchestra. His "2nd" symphony had problems that he recognized and after some time re-writing and re-orchestrating eventually emerged as the 4th. He thought it needed more "color".  I emphatically do not like any conductor tampering with scores. It's Schumann's sound - as unique as any other great composer's. A careful, skilled conductor can make them work - Gardiner, Barenboim, Bernstein are three. Mahler's retouchings make for fine orchestration, but somehow Schumann's voice is lost. I've played the symphonies under hack conductors who don't know what they're doing and they can sound terrible, to be sure. And I've played them with conductors who really spend time on balance and voicing - what a difference!

[ncouton]

"A careful, skilled conductor can make them work - Gardiner, Barenboim, Bernstein are three."

Martin, Barenboim actually used many "retouches" in his two recordings! And not discrete ones!!! 

[Alan Howe]

And Chailly recorded the symphonies using Mahler's revisions!

Here's David Hurwitz's enthusiastic take on Chailly's recordings of Symphonies 2 and 4;

...In reality, the most remarkable thing about Mahler's scoring is how respectful it is of Schumann's original timbral canvas. All he has done is clean the painting, not so much by actual reorchestration as by a complete recalibration of dynamics and internal balances. This is very evident in the finale of the Second Symphony, the main theme of the Fourth's first movement, and the second subject of the same work's finale. The resulting texture is at once more sonorous, but also lighter, an effect obtained by carefully amended timpani parts to firm up the rhythm, and by more readily audible woodwinds. Very little of this was noticeable on previous recordings, particularly BIS's dreary set with the Bergen Philharmonic conduced by Aldo Ceccato.

Happily, Chailly and the Gewandhaus are in a different league. This conductor recorded some standard versions of Schumann symphonies a while back, also for Decca, and they weren't so interesting, but the new orchestrations evidently have given his interpretations new energy. The Second Symphony has real depth of feeling in the Adagio, wonderful string articulation in its scherzo, and plenty of bravura in the finale. The Fourth also is unusually exciting, its lively tempos matching the fresh sounds coming from the orchestra. The result is Schumann freed from what in retrospect sounds like a timbral prison.

Mind you, I have no problem with Schumann's original orchestrations in the sense that even those who claim to use them often alter them drastically (Szell is a prime example) to achieve the clarity and color that the composer obviously had in mind. Those that do not (Haitink), wind up with musical sludge. Mahler may go a bit farther in this respect than most, but in my opinion he never steps over the line. The Genoveva Overture is an attractive bonus, and perhaps inadvertently makes the symphonies' newfound vividness all the more striking. Excellent, natural sonics also help to give the music additional luster. I hope the rest of this cycle appears without delay. It's not just interesting: it's terrific Schumann.
http://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-13506/

[chill319]

Those that do not [touch up Schumann's orchestrations] (Haitink), wind up with musical sludge.

Does anyone besides myself find the Haitink/Concertgebouw/Phillips Schumann symphonies satisfactory? To my mind Haitink "gets" what Schumann meant when he stated that the orchestration of the second version of Symphony 4 was the result of a practiced hand, whereas the first version betrayed the hand of an amateur.

For some years I assumed that the thicker orchestration of the second version, with its many doublings, was an attempt to mask the Dusseldorf orchestra's limited abilities. But actually Schumann gives no hint that he had Dusseldorf in mind particularly. And bearing in mind the very different, transparent orchestration of the incidental music to Faust (overture aside), it would seem that in symphonies 3 and 4 Schumann was choosing thicker orchestral textures for their own sake. Whether or not one considers the Haitink recordings a success, Haitink certainly tried to make good on MartinH's observation that when "conductors ... really spend time on balance and voicing - what a difference!"

[Alan Howe]

Oh, you may well be right. This was, after all, a Hurwitz review...