Overblown great music?

[Alan Howe]

I find Zinman a rather cool conductor - which can be an advantage when there are so many 'super-heated' maestros out there. However, I'd have to have a bit more temperament in this music, I think.

I still want  thorough rest from Mahler, though.

[MartinH]

I looked forward to the Zinman cycle, tried the first when it came out and that was it. Where was the thundering passion? Then a couple of years ago the whole set came out at a bargain price that was too good to pass up: $30, about 20 pounds? The symphonies are without exception well played, sanely conducted. There are no duds - but there's not a single one that I would take on a desert isle. If you attended a live concert and the symphonies were played like this you would leave quite happy. The set has one advantage over most others: the sacd sound. On a well set up surround sound system there's a real presence of sound that is quite gratifying. And it has one sad drawback: the 10th. Why, oh why, did Zinman opt for that horrible Carpenter version?

Nott's edition: I did pick up the 2nd and 7th and was quite impressed an pleased. But neither would be a top choice. (Correction - the new released box is indeed SACD.) Missed that information when I first read about this several months ago.

And there's no doubt that the Dude is going to record them all. Why? There are so many cycles already and based on what I've heard him do, live (an awful, really awful 1st) and on record, I am just not impressed. He's up against stiff competition, and just playing loud and fast doesn't make it great. Personally, I'd really rather have a set from Mark Elder. His recent 9th was superb and the BBC relay of DLVDE from the Proms this week was terrific. Here's an experienced, fine musician who has matured into a conductor of real substance. I'd like to hear more Mahler from him.

I wonder where the record businesses are headed; how many more Mahler sets will the world support? The closure of record stores surely has influenced the buying public. Do the members of the millenial generation buy classical like our generation? I don't know. I doubt it. But that's the way the companies do it: let each new generation of conductors re-re-re-re-record the same literature again and again. And sadly, rarely are the newer recordings compare favorably to the best of the past. It's aggravating that Zinman, Nott, and others will have complete Mahler cycles, and yet two of the greatest Mahler conductors of all, Horenstein and Barbirolli, will only be represented by a handful of symphonies.

[Alan Howe]

It's aggravating that Zinman, Nott, and others will have complete Mahler cycles, and yet two of the greatest Mahler conductors of all, Horenstein and Barbirolli, will only be represented by a handful of symphonies.

Hear, hear! It's time to call a halt until conductors really have something to say...

[adriano]

You won't believe that today, when I visited another Vienna CD shop (Gramola), I just disovered that there is one more new complete Mahler set which just came out: one with Markus Stenz, conducting the Gürzenich Orchestra! And this costs about 50% of rhe Nott set. Nor further comments, except admitting, that I bought it... I know I am crazy...
Apropos Netrebko: while I was perusing Gramola's CD shelves, which took about 30 minutes - and just after we said quite a few bad things about Netrebko's new Verismo CD, 4 people came in to buy it. I said that this CD would make perhaps the shop's monthly rent, and he laughed. He also complained about similar "title" and "cover in costume"  presentations of Kaufman and Bartoli recitals... He also mentioned that he would recognise"the usual Netebko fan's faces" coming in before they would buy. He categorically refuses to display and to sell the Chopard luxury version of this disc.
I am now at Vienna Central Station waiting for my night train to Zurich. Among the many CDs I have bought, there are the Prokofiev piano concerti with Krainiev/Kitaenko (new Melodyia remastering) and that famous live "Masked Ball" from the Vienna Staatsoper with Abbado, Pavarotti, Cappuccilli and my deraest friend Gabriele Lechner, with whom I had lunch yesterday at the Café Mozart...

[MartinH]

After you've listened to the Stenz cycle, please let us know what you thought. His Mahler 5th from Melbourne was terrific in every way. This remake...well, I let you decide. The set is available for under $50, and in sacd, which in this case adds nothing.

[Alan Howe]

It'll be for completists only - from the reviews I've read.

[semloh]

I have been silent on UC for a while, and am now awaiting the arrival of a new computer, but I had to get out the old laptop and see what was happening. To my surprise, we are discussing Mahler - the antithesis of an Unsung Composer! I have been confused by it all because there seems to be several overlapping arguments, including one concerning 'too much Mahler',  another about the quality of Mahler's music, and another about the number and quality of recordings.

I take Alan's point that Mahler's ubiquity might be at the expense of some Unsungs like Berger, but of course one might say the same of many of the Sungs - Tchaikovsky, for example, who probably gets more airtime here in Australia than anyone but Mozart, and certainly more concert coverage than Mahler, and potentially crowds out neglected romantic Russian UCs.

There are many reasons for Mahler's continuing popularity with CD companies, orchestras, and programmers, but the most salient is probably the appetite of the public for his music. Receipts count for more than scholarly discourse. For me, every note of Mahler is precious, but I ration them out just as I do with all music. If listening reaches 'saturation' you can always listen to something else!

[Double-A]

I always wonder if "receipts" are what drives this:  Mahler's I think are the most costly symphonies in the repertoire.  This ought to rather put a break on:  You can probably record 10 or 20 Haydn symphonies for the money you spend on one Mahler (not that I call for more recordings of Haydn symphonies, we have plenty, most of them unremarkable).

I have no idea what drives the "Mahler boom" but there seems to be something else at work.

[semloh]

Presumably it's the public appetite for Mahler that drives the market? And remember that a big symphony concert need only play one of Mahler's blockbusters to every three Haydn or Mozart symphonies.

I am encouraged that, in the age of short-attention spans and rapid responses, at least audiences are prepared to put in the time and sustained effort of appreciating a Mahler symphony.

[Alan Howe]

Can the public appetite not be educated to appreciate other music, though?

[adriano]

It's the managers, those mafiosi who are not interested in promoting less-known repertoire, because they know exactly that audiences are not well-educated enough and still prefer listening their Beethovens and Mozart because they like to hum the tunes they know in their bathrooms afterwards - or have already the recordings at home. In other words, such concerts sell less. We talked about this in various earlier forums... And the teacher: how many of them would be ready (and willing) to introduce younger students to Bürgmüller, Draeseke, Schreker & Co.? Most of them are ingnorants or unflexible; they would have to invest more time studying, since they too prfere the usual routine... The only big praise goes to musicians and CD labels, who really love and promote unsung repertoire, this often with sacrifices!

[semloh]

I think public taste can be manipulated, Alan, but it's easy to exploit what's already fashionable.

However, I agree with whoever said that we live in a golden age when it comes to UCs... due in part to Naxos breaking the hold of the big boys decades ago, quickly followed by the freedom created by the digital age. Sorry for getting off track.

An interesting question from my perspective is whether the vogue for particular composers reflects some important aspect of society. Does the public taste veer toward certain musical styles/composers when society feels under threat, when it feels buoyant and optimistic, or - say - despondent and pessimistic? The taste for Mahler might be indicative of a certain section of society in mourning, say,  or perhaps seeking solace in the face of loss - and as an ex-pat it's not hard to see why that could be the case. Just a thought.....

[Alan Howe]

Or perhaps, dare I say it, morbid emotionalism...?

[Double-A]

Presumably it's the public appetite for Mahler that drives the market? And remember that a big symphony concert need only play one of Mahler's blockbusters to every three Haydn or Mozart symphonies.

It is not the number of symphonies that interests the accountants but the number of musicians.  30 musicians can do your entire hypothetical Mozart / Haydn program (I'd say four rather than three symphonies),  a Mahler symphony requires a lot more.

Can the public appetite not be educated to appreciate other music, though?

The public was educated to appreciate Mahler not all that long ago.  Maybe this is like the sorcerer's broom:  Nobody knows how to put it back into the closet now that it is working so well--too well...

One wonders though how and when and why such educations take place.  I mean there would have to be some sort of concerted action among people who plan and program concerts, write the learned stuff one finds in concert programs, write CD booklets, review concerts and recordings for the press etc. 

BTW I don't think Mahler is uniquely suited to "morbid emotionalism".  There are other candidates for that particular niche.

[Alan Howe]

I didn't say that it was uniquely Mahler whose music is characterised by or suited to morbid emotionalism. However, what I am sure of is that emotionalism is (perhaps uniquely) characteristic of our day. This was first brought home to me in August/September 1997 when observing the extraordinary outpouring of emotion (which seemed to me at the time to be more akin to morbid emotionalism) surrounding the death and funeral of Diana, Princess of Wales.

One wonders though how and when and why such educations take place

I'd say this was largely conductor-driven when Mahler was unknown to the wider public. A whole generation of conductors (Walter, Klemperer, Reiner, Ormandy, Horenstein, etc. and their successors - Bernstein, Haitink, Solti, etc.) championed Mahler and so educated the public. Sadly, this educational role has been largely buried amid the promotion of superstar younger conductors who jet around the world performing the same old stuff time after time after time after time....