PCs with lengthy orchestral openings

[DennisS]

Re-listening to Hummel's PC opus 85, I was surprised by the lengthy orchestral opening of this PC before the soloist ( in this case Stephen Hough) makes his entry- some 3 min 52 seconds into the work before the piano writing commences. Another recent example which comes to mind is Alexander Tcherepnin's PC no 1, which has a simply stunning 3 min (just under actually)orchestral opening before the piano entry is made. Normally, most PCs usually start with the piano joining in quite early on, or at least that is how it seems to me. Perhaps I have never really noticed that before. Do any other members of the forum know of concertos (PC, VC or CC), where the orchestra features so prominently before the soloist's entry. Also, does a lengthy orchestral opening before the solist's entry make for an outstanding concerto?

Cheers
Dennis

[eschiss1]

Not exactly an answer, but only one of Mozart's concertos lacks an orchestral introduction, usually fairly substantial. (The exception is one of his earlier piano concertos, now given the confusing name Piano Concerto No.9.)  There's at least one reason for this, probably a few.

*Part of the solution to the "problem of the concerto"- you have an orchestra there and a solo instrument, and neither is inconsequential- both have to be given some time and some reason for being there.  When the soloist enters there is a natural tendency for the performer to hog the limelight- an opening "tutti" section is one way to avoid this. (People will say that this tutti section will elaborate themes later heard in the rest of the opening movement, etc. This is often but ''not'' invariably the case. Mozart's own piano concertos show too many exceptions to set up many hard and fast rules on such things.  With only one or two exceptions (his 14th piano concerto in E-flat, a very, very odd beast!, notable among them), though, the opening orchestral sections do stay pretty firmly in the home key, maybe the better to contrast with what happens once the piano ''does'' enter.)

As to the aforementioned concerto no. 9 though, the early entry by the soloist is something of a teaser, followed by a lengthy orchestral solo, followed by the more usual interaction by piano and orchestra...

[Kriton]

The opening of Field's 2nd concerto is quite substantial. Although it's hardly original - one can tell exactly when the pianist will start playing -  it is, because of its beautiful melodies, one of my favourite piano concerto openings.

[edurban]

Karl Czerny's a minor pc is another example.  Extended opening for the orchestra lays out all the themes, piano enters (Blumental recording) at 3:04.  Great stuff, though not as great as the Hummel (whose Op.89 also has a long opening tutti.)

David

[Steve B]

i think lengthy, grand and sometimes pompous opening tuttis are great: the (both)Chopin occur immediately(uncut) as long-anyone counted?Will have to think of some examples:the Pabst is good, but I think(put me right, if necessary, Jim-you have a better memory!)the piano enters FIRST, but then there is a lengthy giganticist monster of a Tempelhof airport of a tutti(but with a grandly moving theme). Agree re Field No2; No3 too has long opening tutti and also long central tuttis in all olf the Field concerti and LOVE the way the piano builds up, in a more and more grand and hysterical way to the development tutti and recap tutti(in 2 and 3 concertis)-mad. Steve

[Mark Thomas]

Brahms' First is surely a magnificent example of the extended orchestral opening? Around 3½ minutes in most performances? It thrills every time I hear it. Another, although tongue in cheek this time, is the one with which Dohnanyi opens his Variations on a Nursery Song - I haven't checked the timing on that one, but it certainly feels long.

[Pengelli]

I've had one's like that. You start looking at the cd case,just to make sure it is a piano concerto & they haven't put the wrong cd in the case.

[ahinton]

Brahms' First is surely a magnificent example of the extended orchestral opening? Around 3½ minutes in most performances? It thrills every time I hear it. Another, although tongue in cheek this time, is the one with which Dohnanyi opens his Variations on a Nursery Song - I haven't checked the timing on that one, but it certainly feels long.

The Busoni is surely the best of them!

[thalbergmad]

I recall one of the Cramer PC's having a huge intro, so much so that i thought it was a symphony and had to check the CD. I get impatient with Concerto's like that.

No doubt one of the Sorabji PC's has a 3 hour intro.

Thal

[khorovod]

Re-listening to Hummel's PC opus 85, I was surprised by the lengthy orchestral opening of this PC before the soloist ( in this case Stephen Hough) makes his entry- some 3 min 52 seconds into the work before the piano writing commences. Another recent example which comes to mind is Alexander Tcherepnin's PC no 1, which has a simply stunning 3 min (just under actually)orchestral opening before the piano entry is made. Normally, most PCs usually start with the piano joining in quite early on, or at least that is how it seems to me. Perhaps I have never really noticed that before. Do any other members of the forum know of concertos (PC, VC or CC), where the orchestra features so prominently before the soloist's entry. Also, does a lengthy orchestral opening before the solist's entry make for an outstanding concerto?

Cheers
Dennis

Actually I don't find the orchestral opening of the Hummel that remarkable - from point of view of either its presence or its scale, at least (musically, I think it is exceptionally fine). The orchestral "exposition" of material in the opening movement is something of an accepted convention of the genre at this period and one that can be traced back to the form's pre-Classical origins.

Undoubtedly, there are exceptions to this rule, as with any rule, and they strike me as more notable during this period than an opening orchestral statement however expansive; one thinks of the Mozart example already mentioned by eschiss or the openings of Beethoven's PCs 4 and 5 (the latter striking me as having more in common, looking backwards, with that Mozart concerto or, looking fowards, with Tchaikovsky PC 1, in that they are arresting opening gestures that startle and confound the listener's expectations but which aren't particularly integral to the ensuing movement itself). For how widespread and accepted the practice of a lengthy or otherwise orchestral exposition is, just look at the PCs of Kozeluch and Hummel or the VCs of Viotti to name some of the more well-known (or at least, recently recorded) unsung practicioners of the genre.

No doubt for any composer as the 19th century progressed, to dispense with this format was an easy way to introduce mild innovation and by the end of the century (and certainly by the time of Tcherepnin) I doubt anyone would remark on it being omitted other than the most die-hard reactionary academics of music conservatoires.

[eschiss1]

While Cedric Thorpe Davie (a Tovey disciple) probably does count as something of a die-hard academic (something of, and something not of, too) he gave, if I remember, some pretty good reasons (in a Dover-republished book of his) for the opening tutti (as did a few other authors.) Not out of mere archaism did Brahms use the device too...

[khorovod]

While Cedric Thorpe Davie (a Tovey disciple) probably does count as something of a die-hard academic (something of, and something not of, too) he gave, if I remember, some pretty good reasons (in a Dover-republished book of his) for the opening tutti (as did a few other authors.) Not out of mere archaism did Brahms use the device too...

Sorry for any confusion, I didn't mean to suggest that there was anything wrong or inherently reactionary/conservative about using the opening tutti. I just meant that by the end of the nineteenth century I doubt many people would have raised an eyebrow at it being dispensed with unless they were slavishly devoted to narrow definitions of how a concerto should "classically" be written.

(I have edited my first post to make it more clear what I meant but failed to say.)

[Gerhard Griesel]

I have hoped one day somebody would post a list of PCs with the length of their orchestral openings somewhere, although it will be a good example of trivial pursuit. An interesting example is what I regard as the most beautiful piano concerto ever written: Busoni's. On the Hyperion recording, which is brilliant, the piano joins in at 4.02.

[DennisS]

Re-listening to the Brahms PC with Emil Gilels and Eugen Jochum/BPO, the orchestral opening lasts 4:14!!! (although other versions are considerably shorter i.e. around 3 1/2 minutes). Many consider the Emil Gilels version to be one of the very best. I for my part love this interpretation . I must admit though, that like others who have remarked on lengthy orchestral openings, one does not always have the impression initially that it is indeed a PC!

Dennis

[ahinton]

I have hoped one day somebody would post a list of PCs with the length of their orchestral openings somewhere, although it will be a good example of trivial pursuit. An interesting example is what I regard as the most beautiful piano concerto ever written: Busoni's. On the Hyperion recording, which is brilliant, the piano joins in at 4.02.

I'd mentioned that concerto already and it is indeed one of the highest peaks that the piano concerto format has ever reached, in the humble opinion of one who would never dare write a piano concerto himself because (as he once said to Sorabji, who wrote 11 of them) Busoni's already done it...