Rubinstein, a poor creature?

[thalbergmad]

Well the audience would need a lot of stamina if it were me playing, since at the moment it would probably take me about 30 minutes.

Indeed, a piano is essential, but a pneumatic drill would help as well.

All this Rubinstein talk has given me the urge to play badly some more of his compositions. I am off to destroy the Yankee Doodle variations.

Thal

[edurban]

Now that the conversation has moved to Rubinstein in general (as opposed to just the 5th symphony,) I feel justified in quoting a little G. B. Shaw for your reading pleasure.  Enjoy, David

20 December 1893

...Mention of the London Symphony Concerts reminds me that I said nothing at the time about the last one, at which Mr. Henschel revived Rubinstein's Ramsgate Symphony, sometimes described as The Ocean. 
In judging this work it should be borne in mind that Rubinstein is a Russian, and that in no country in Europe is it possible to keep so far away from the ocean as in Russia.  Also that Rubinstein's rating as a composer is not high.  He is only oceanic in respect of not being fresh, and of being drenchingly copious.  His songs, duets, and pianoforte pieces are sincerely sentimental and sometimes pretty, though they are all compiled from the works of greater composers; but an ocean symphony-no, thank you.
    If I cannot have Wagner's sea music, I can content myself with Mendelssohn's Hebrides, or even Grieg's scrap of storm music in Peer Gynt, or, if no better may be, with Strauss' North Sea waltz played in the true Strauss manner.  I only draw the line at Rubinstein's attempt to stuff out the chords of C and G major with musical chaff to something like the bigness of the round pond in Kensington Gardens.  It is no use: the thing, oceanically considered, is a failure.  Leave the ocean out of the question, and you have a bustling and passable third-hand Schubert symphony.  Mr Henschel mercifully cut two movements out of it; and when he proceeds to cut out the other four my enjoyment of the work will be complete.  By way of putting Rubinstein entirely out of countenance, his work was prefaced by Weber's Ocean, thou mighty monster, sung by Mrs. Eaton, a lady of formidable physical powers, which she used with due discetion and artistic feeling...

[mbhaub]

Fact is, there have been recordings of Rubinstein's music around for many years. He is not a new-found unsung. And if he is a second- or thrid-tier composer, he has never been completely ignored or "lost."

This is true for the piano music, for Piano Concertos 3, 4, and 5 but not much else. Candide had recordings of the 2nd and 6th symphonies but that's about it. Somehow, miraculously, in the cd era suddenly there was a bounty of Rubsinstein that came out of the blue. Finally, we could here all of the symphonies, one Opera, and a huge trove of chamber music that if we knew existed, had no way to hear. I would agree that he is a second or third tier composer, and there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, he's in rather good company. There's a lot of music from 2nd and 3rd rate composers that I really enjoy, and so do a lot of other people.

I once heard a classical radio announcer toying with the audience after playing the Rubinstein 5th symphony. He said something like, "What was that we heard? Is it badly orchestrated Beethoven? Or maybe badly composed Mendelssohn?" As much as I hated what he said, I got it. Rubinstein wasn't a brilliant orchestrator in the Mighty Handful method. And his music does suffer from a heaviness. As much as I appreciated the Marco Polo effort, I do wish we could have a new cycle with better orchestras and maybe even better conductors (I nominate George Hanson of the Tucson Symphony) so that it would be possible to re-evaluate him. Lord knows what a difference a really good recording makes. The Tudor Raff set is so much better than the Marco Polo's over all that it just makes the music sound better.

I cannot play the Staccato Etude. Not in a million years. It's back to Hanon exercises for me!

[FBerwald]

Having said what I have about the 4th Symphony, I am happy to confirm how much I enjoy PCs 3 (my personal favourite) and 4, the VC, and Syms 2 and 6. But I do think that Rubinstein often goes on for too long and that his output is very uneven; and yet I also acknowledge that he was an important figure in Russia. Certainly Tchaikovsky thought so...

I'd say Rubinstein has something for everyone. for example ppl here seem to love the symphonies 4 and 6 but i'd chose the 5th any day of the week for the Ist and IInd movement. Also love the 2nd cello concerto and the 3rd piano concerto ....I really enjoy the Ist movement which I feel is a waltz in disguise!!!(since I'm a huge Strauss buff!!!! )

And while we are on the subject of Rubinstein.... I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Amazing Kamennïy-ostrov!!! (24 beautiful treasures) of which the no. 20 is surely a masterpiece worthy of standing on its own in any concert hall without any apology!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Peter1953]

Thank you all very much for your interesting and useful comments. It's obvious that I don't agree with everything, but I'm not going in discussion. Well, one thing. For me Symphony 4 is a beautiful, massive work, not one minute too long (however, it's not his best symphony). But I'll guess that's due to my strange taste. No, I cannot confirm that Rubinstein didn't know when to stop. In fact, I wish he never had stopped... 
And all the criticism he got in his days, well, I'm almost sure it was mainly Jalousie de métier.

Yes FBerwald, there are a lot of gems in his piano works. For me Joseph Banowetz is the major advocate of Rubinstein's piano music. I can only hope that one day Raff gets his Banowetz.

How many new unsung music I've learned thanks to this Forum, for me Rubinstein is still the Number One (very, very closely followed by Raff).

[JimL]

If Nguyen isn't Raff's Banowetz, she's damn close.  Man, that's a weird sounding sentence!

[Delicious Manager]

It would seem that the amount of discussion on Rubinstein's music is in inverse proportion to the quality of most of his music...

[Alan Howe]

That's probably unfair, but I think the general consensus is that he was uneven and that his besetting problem was a failure to sustain his musical arguments adequately when working on a large canvas. Of course, there were exceptions and I see no reason to object when fans of his music express affection for his music.

What I do think is that there were more gifted composers deserving of our attention writing at approximately the same time as Rubinstein...

[Delicious Manager]

Sorry, it wasn't meant to come across as an objection, merely an observation (and one pre-echoed by an earlier contributor).

And I agree that there are several unsung Russian composers more worthy of lengthy discussion. When (if) I get my brain into gear, I'll try and get something going by starting a new topic.

[Alan Howe]

Actually, I meant composers in general - not just Russian ones.

[jerfilm]

Is there a modern recording of the Violin Concerto?  I have an old reel to reel tape version that needs an update.

[FBerwald]

The 'latest' recording is by Takako Nishizaki on Marco Polo (I'm not sure about the release date but it has to be in the late 80's) re-released on Naxos. It's quite a well balanced and fine recording!!!

[Delicious Manager]

A five-second search in Amazon would have revealed it to you.