Looking for female composers manuscripts

[ComposHer]

Hey everyone !

I hope I'm not posting in the wrong place. Let me explain in a few words who I am : I'm the co-founder of ComposHer, a collective that works to promote classical music written and played by women. One of the things we would like to do is actually edit works by female composers to make them more available to the general public. Of course, we focus on pieces which haven't been edited yet or which need a more modern edition than the one available. In my research about female composers in general, I often find myself on this forum, where I did find some extremely precise and useful information, so I thought I would come and ask directly :

Do you have in mind interesting female composers from the romantic era, and specific pieces that need to be edited ? I'm interested in anything : works for choir, orchestra, chamber music ... anything !

I realize that some of you might be trying to do the same things, or working in similar ways to find and promote forgotten works. I do not wish to insinuate that I'm the first to try and do that, on the contrary, I came here to see if people with more experience and years of research could help me in my project. I'll welcome any input !

Thanks so much for your help !

Marie, for ComposHer

[Double-A]

I am sure you are aware of this but I think it needs to be answered:  Furore Verlag and Hildegard Publishing both specialize in this sort of repertoire.  Plus there is IMSLP.  Given all this what do you plan to do or how do you think you will complement these already existing efforts?

One more thought:  One of the problems is money:  Louise Farrenc's violin sonata op. 39 costs $39 at Hildegard, the first volume of Beethoven violin sonatas (5 sonatas) by Henle $43.  If you had never heard of Farrenc would you invest this much for this one sonata if you can get five of Beethoven's for just a little more (or each one individually for a fraction of the Farrenc)?  I am not saying Farrenc's music is not worth it, quite the opposite, but those who haven't heard of her won't see it that way. 

I understand perfectly why these publishers have to charge more if they want to cover their cost:  They count on a small number of buyers--and are forced to make that number even smaller with their pricing.  One way to reduce cost is what Merton Music and Silvertrust are doing:  Taking the original edition, correcting any mistakes, fixing any hard to read sections, adding rehearsal marks if necessary and printing the result rather than re-engraving the whole work.  But even this process involves a lot of work I would guess.

[Gareth Vaughan]

Dear Marie,
I think this is an excellent enterprise. Music publishing today is actually cheaper than it ever has been, since the birth of digital technology and programmes like "Sibelius". No-one is denying the considerable work that may have to be put in to editing and preparing a score but, once done, reproducing it is relatively inexpensive. So I applaud this project very much. The music publishers Double-A mentions do good work but that does not mean there is no room for others.

Among female composers deserving of wider recognition (IMHO), many of whose works remain in MS and are not therefore widely available, the following names spring immediately to mind:

Dorothy Howell
Lilian Elkington
Ruth Gipps
Dora Bright
Morfydd Owen
Emilie Mayer
Ina Boyle
Johanna Senfter
Freda Swain

Contributors to this forum will be able to add other names to this list. In the case of Dorothy Howell I can put you in touch with her niece who has all her MSS, and with Freda Swain I know who has all her MSS. Also, somewhere in my collection I believe I have photocopies of the MS score and parts of Lilian Elkington's "Out of the Mist".

I wish your project well. Please let me know if I can be of assistance.

[ComposHer]

I am sure you are aware of this but I think it needs to be answered:  Furore Verlag and Hildegard Publishing both specialize in this sort of repertoire.  Plus there is IMSLP.  Given all this what do you plan to do or how do you think you will complement these already existing efforts?

Yes, I know about those two and I greatly appreciate their work. Actually, one thing I haven't made clear is that I want to volunteer my time for this, i.e. do it freely. The goal is indeed to put the scores on IMSLP. I'm not looking to create a publishing company at this point, and I don't think I will want to.

The point you raise about the money issue is a good one, and that's also the core of my project : I want to make the scores available and useful for amateur musicians and ensembles.

Overall I realize this is quite a difficult balance : I don't want to ruin the work of actual publishing companies by re-doing it for free, but I do believe that something can be done even if it's in the end only a few pieces. I recently put the orchestra parts of Emilie Mayer's Faust Ouverture on IMSLP (only the complete score was there). It's not great because that's the first transcribing "job" I did (and on Musescore), but it's a start and I'm also working on her first symphony, the manuscript of which being on IMSLP.

Contributors to this forum will be able to add other names to this list. In the case of Dorothy Howell I can put you in touch with her niece who has all her MSS, and with Freda Swain I know who has all her MSS. Also, somewhere in my collection I believe I have photocopies of the MS score and parts of Lilian Elkington's "Out of the Mist".

I wish your project well. Please let me know if I can be of assistance.

Thanks Gareth, that's great ! I'm aware of most of these composers, although not all of them so that's already an addition to our database. I am working on Emilie Mayer manuscripts as I mentioned, and I will do some research on the others. Thank you very much !

[violinconcerto]

One more thought:  One of the problems is money

Maybe she wants to publish the score free of charge? Farrenc for no money would maybe more interesting than Beethoven for 43US$...

Best,
Tobias

[eschiss1]

btw if you want me to remove a couple of the Mayer manuscript symphonies (some of which I uploaded/mirrored-with-slight-tweaks-from-SBB) from IMSLP (I see since that, that while the manuscripts were uploaded by libraries, there may be some copyright issues since they have been published in typeset form recently, and as to others you may be working on doing the same) I will do so - sorry about.

[JimL]

I believe there is an entire project to edit the works of Johanna Senfter, but so far, they only have managed to release one of her symphonies (the 4th). It would be interesting to contact the people working on the project to see what else they have managed to complete in performance-worthy editions.

[ComposHer]

btw if you want me to remove a couple of the Mayer manuscript symphonies (some of which I uploaded/mirrored-with-slight-tweaks-from-SBB) from IMSLP (I see since that, that while the manuscripts were uploaded by libraries, there may be some copyright issues since they have been published in typeset form recently, and as to others you may be working on doing the same) I will do so - sorry about.

On the contrary, I'm actually working on her 1st symphony and I'm glad the manuscript is on IMSLP. Copyright issues are a bit of a puzzle for me. I was under the impression that if a piece is in the public domain and the manuscript is legally available (as I assume it is when uploaded by librairies), I can publish it in typeset form whithout any other constrain. But I might be wrong.

Actually I think it's also the case for non public domain pieces, for instance : if Gareth were to send me the scans of Lilian Elkington "Out of the mist" manuscripts, it would be legal for me to upload a typeset version of them, as long as I do so under the right license. But I might be completely mistaken, maybe you guys know more than me about this.

I believe there is an entire project to edit the works of Johanna Senfter, but so far, they only have managed to release one of her symphonies (the 4th). It would be interesting to contact the people working on the project to see what else they have managed to complete in performance-worthy editions.

Thanks, I'll take a look !

[eschiss1]

actually, since Mayer's works were mostly first performed in the 1840s, manuscripts can indeed be scanned/rescanned without copyright concerns in many jurisdictions, iirc, because those first performances do generally count as first "publications", not the more recent 2000sies publications that claim to be Erstdruck (and which so far as first appearance on -paper- is concerned, are). The law here is at once complicated but somehow intuitive. A performance or a publication, so far as an unpublished work (from before a certain date-this does NOT apply to very recent works) counts as a "delivery" of the work and has the same "publication" status under law for setting "first publication date" status earlier.

Lilian Elkington died after 1967 (1969) so her unpublished music -is in copyright everywhere-, and it would not be legal for you to upload a typeset without at the least the consent of her estate or copyright holders! See IMSLP's guide to public domain status - tables regarding public domain status of -unpublished- music.

[matesic]

Hi Marie,

I think this is an admirable project. A few years ago I went on a similar trawl for unpublished manuscripts, my particular angle being 19th century British chamber music. I was able to locate several in the libraries of the RAM, RCM and Fitzwilliam that the librarian was able to scan for me (at a price) and content for me to publish on IMSLP. I think even for some of these composers copyright status was somewhat unclear, but after such a passage of time the librarians were happy to look the other way.

A sticking point did arise over an early 20th century composer who died without issue and whose manuscripts had been deposited in the RAM by a family member. In this case the librarian was anxious for me to identify his closest living relative for permission to publish. There was a loophole however. IMSLP is hosted in Canada where "orphan" mss of this sort seem to be regarded in the same light as published works, being copyright protected for just 50 years after the composer's death, so no objections were raised.

Although like you I wasn't seeking any payment for my work, I still found territorial issues sometimes got in the way. If the manuscripts belong to a trust there will usually already be a family member or academic enthroned who regards the composer as his "patch", to the extent that even offers of free assistance (that can only be to the advantage of the composer's reputation) are rebuffed. With a great deal of current interest in female composers I think you may find it hard to locate much material that isn't in some sense already spoken for. Rebecca Clarke is a particular case in point - my advice would be don't go there!

But best of luck anyway

[matesic]

As a post-script to my story of the early 20th century composer, after 6 or more years I've made contact with his closest living relative, coincidentally living in Canada. He looked in his basement and discovered a stash of further ms material he didn't know existed!

[ComposHer]

Ah yes, I was being naive about those copyright issues. To be fair it's not easy understanding what's perfectly legal, tolerated, frowned upon, etc. Thanks for the clarifications though !

And it is definitely a delicate issue. I wasn't really planning to go near composers who are not in the public domain but there's not that many manuscripts available for the 19th century.

[Gareth Vaughan]

Have you looked at Luise Adolpha Le Beau? And there are two attractive orchestral pieces by Agatha Backer-Grondahl: Andante for piano and orchestra, and a Scherzo. Scans of these MSS are on IMSLP. Performing editions and orchestral sets would be very useful.

[eschiss1]

further as to Mayer, Stabikat Berlin has now digitized a whole lot of her manuscript music, including a number of brief piano works, but unlike the symphonies, I'm not sure how much of it we can say with confidence was ever -publicly- performed.

BNF/Gallica(.bnf.fr) has a few manuscript piano works by Louise Farrenc up, I note, too. (Oddly(?) only a few manuscripts scanned by Chaminade, but I notice one of them is of her song Les papillons.)

[jimsemadeni]

Hi Marie, You might be able to find the score of Dora Bright's Piano Concerto No. 1 in a by contacting any of the principals of the performance within last few years by the young pianist Samantha Ward who played it with the Morley Chamber Orchestra conducted by Charles Peebles, I was able to correspond with Samantha Ward, but it has been awhile, I think Google might help. Nice piece to my ears, the pianist better than the orchestra, but never dreamed I would hear it at all.