A Puzzle.

[Revilod]

What do these composers have in common?  Sibelius, Rimsky-Korsakov, Liszt, Amy Beach and.....probably (it's not known for certain) Raff. Googling not allowed!

[Kriton]

They all wrote what we consider to be "romantic" music?

They were all alcoholics?

[eschiss1]

hrm... what instruments did Sibelius and Rimsky play? I don't know if all of them were conductors (Sibelius did some and Liszt did quite a lot, I think so did Rimsky but I'm not sure of Beach...)
Eric

[mbhaub]

Sibelius was a violinist. Beach and Liszt pianists. RK not much of a performer at all. They were all straight?  I was thinking they all came to America, but Raff didn't, don't know about Liszt. Beach and Sibelius heard music as colors, but Liszt? RK? No, that was Scriabin.They all wrote their first symphony at an advanced age? Nope. They liked schnapps? Liverwurst? THEY SPOKE GERMAN! (probably not RK). I don't know.

[eschiss1]

Sibelius was a violinist. Beach and Liszt pianists. RK not much of a performer at all. They were all straight?  I was thinking they all came to America, but Raff didn't, don't know about Liszt. Beach and Sibelius heard music as colors, but Liszt? RK? No, that was Scriabin.They all wrote their first symphony at an advanced age? Nope. They liked schnapps? Liverwurst? THEY SPOKE GERMAN! (probably not RK). I don't know.

As far I know an effort was made by Barnum to get Liszt to America but failed. I know of no other more successful efforts.
Beach, Sibelius (shall we count Kullervo? yes, I think so...) and Liszt's first symphonies are from reasonably early (and R-K's especially so) in their careers (definitely likewise Raff and that wouldn't explain the important "not known for certain" since when Raff wrote his lost first symphony may not be known exactly, but it's earlier than his surviving published 'first') - so I would discard that guess, yep
Eric

[TerraEpon]

I'd hardly say Liszt's first symphony was 'reasonably early' (yes I looked it up) -- both of his were 1857, he was born in 1811 and wrote MANY works before those symphonies.

I'm guessing it's that they all wrote an opera that was never performed in the composer's lifetime...


...(edit: Though now that I look, Liszt's one finished opera was, apparently, performed, even though it was lost for a while)

[JimL]

I don't recall Sibelius ever composed an opera.  Certainly it would have been performed by now.  I don't think that's it.

[eschiss1]

I don't recall Sibelius ever composed an opera.  Certainly it would have been performed by now.  I don't think that's it.

He did, and it has been, performed and recorded. The Maiden in the Tower, a very early work. Liszt did also, Don Sanche, a collaboration of sorts I believe with Paer.

[eschiss1]

I'd hardly say Liszt's first symphony was 'reasonably early' (yes I looked it up) -- both of his were 1857, he was born in 1811 and wrote MANY works before those symphonies.

I'm guessing it's that they all wrote an opera that was never performed in the composer's lifetime...


...(edit: Though now that I look, Liszt's one finished opera was, apparently, performed, even though it was lost for a while)

Good point re the Liszt and Dante symphonies. His initial plans toward the Revolutionary Symphony of 1848 produced a good tone poem but not a symphony; it's since often been so. Hrm, actually, the Faust and Dante symphonies, like many Liszt works, have several versions, so 1857 seems a bit too "pat" a date-Faust was premiered in 1857 (September 5 1857, Weimar, for the Unveiling of the Goethe-Schiller Monument) but may have a revision history something like
(finished in, not begun in) "1854; revised 1857–61, 1880" (1854 doesn't have the final chorus suggested by v. Bulow)
while the Dante symphony was composed something along the lines of 1855-6, but also, yes premiered in 1857 (7 November 1857, in Dresden. 1857 apparently also saw the premieres of the 2nd piano concerto and Die Ideale, and the last version of Ce qu'on entend.)
Eric

[John Hudock]

They were all synesthetes (spelling?), that is they all saw colors when hearing music or sounds. I believe Messaien, Ligeti and Ravel were as well. And contemporary composer Michael Torke is one, that's why he has all the color references in his piece names.

There's a fascinating book on the subject called "The Man Who Tasted Shapes". (It comes in other forms than seeing colors when hearing sounds, although I think all the composers here had the color/sound variety). Oliver Sacks has several chapters about it in his book Musicophilia which I also recommend.

[Mark Thomas]

Wikipedia seems to have the answer, as you say John.

[Revilod]

Yes, they were all synesthetes. I hadn't been aware that Raff may have been one. That's what prompted me to post.

[Mark Thomas]

I've tried on and off for several years to track down the source of the quote which has Raff talking about associating colours with the sounds of various instruments. In the first instance it comes from an 1892 US medical journal, quoting Raff from 1855, but without giving the source. I assume, but only assume, that it's from a letter Raff wrote, maybe to Liszt or to Hans von Bülow. His correspondence to both of them was published after his death in 1882. I've not been able to find the original unfortunately.

[John Hudock]

Now if Smetena or Tchakovsky had replaced Rimsky-Korsakov the similarity would've been that they had all written
Shakespeare inspired pieces.

Amy Beach: Three Shakespeare Songs
Raff: Shakespeare Overtures
Sibelius: The Tempest
Liszt: Hamlet


Smetena: Richard III
Tchaikovsky: Romeo & Juliet, Hamlet, Tempest, etc...

For the life of me I can't think of a single Shakespeare inspired work by Rimsky-Korsakov, which seems quite strange (unless you include The Tale of Tsar Saltan which is based on Pushkin's poem which was based somewhat on Winter's Tale)

[Jonathan]

Hang on, I've never read anywhere* that Liszt suffered from synaesthesia?  Can someone point me in the direction of a reference?
Many thanks...

* and I must have read just about every book in English about him as he is my favourite composer