Fritz Brun - copyright issues

[eschiss1]

By the way, is there a recording of Brun's string quartet in G (which was published by Hug in 1923- which makes it PD-US* as of this year)?


*short-hand, possibly specific to IMSLP and long-time volunteers there like me, for P[ublic] D[omain] in the USA (PD-EU for PD in the European Union, PD-CA for Canada, likewise used...) It's almost certainly PD-CA given the 50-year rule but won't be PD-EU for 11 years yet - assuming treaty negotiations that may be in progress don't change everything- who knows, that is hypothetical anyways...

[adriano]

eschiss1, you still don't seem to understand copright rules. A musical work becomes public domain only 70 years after the composer's death, not after the publishing of a score. Brun died in 1959, so calculate.
Brun's Quartet (No. 2, in G ) was never recorded. There are Radio tapes of No. 1 and 4 - and, of course that Kulturszene Schweiz CD of quartet No. 3.
50 years may be applying for most sound recordings.

[eschiss1]

this death+71 is true in the EU, yes, as noted. The 1923 rule I gave is approximately accurate for the US.

[TerraEpon]

this death+71 is true in the EU, yes, as noted. The 1923 rule I gave is approximately accurate for the US.

Actually it's the US it's 95 years post-publication, which means FINALLY this year the US got some new PD stuff.

And it's 50+ years post-death in Canada, Japan and some other places.

[eschiss1]

right. basically, it was "PD if published before 1923;
-if- 1978>pdate>=1923 and properly renewed and etc., then 95 years post-publication ..."  - there's a summary at: IMSLP:Public Domain. (So this was the first year that in practice that 1923 got stepped to 1924... but a work not properly renewed and not notice-of-intent-to-enforce etc. can be public domain in the US even if published with proper dated copyright between 1924 and 1962*)

*(See this footnote at the linked page: "(US:Proof of non-renewal and NIE status applies mainly to works published 1924-1963. All works published 1964-1977 (emphasis mine- ELS) have been renewed automatically and enjoy a full term of 95 years after first publication provided notice and eligibility requirements were met. Works published 1978 and later are under copyright for life-plus-70, though notice and eligibility requirements remained in limited form until 1989.)"

(This applies to published works whose authors are known. Manuscript but never-published works and published works about whose authorship there is uncertainty : other rules apply, some of which are also summarized on the linked page...) Apologies, as I realize that if anything deserves a thread of its own arguably it's probably this!...

[adriano]

"Copyright" property of a score (in this case "publishing copyright") means that it can be reprinted by another publisher. This has nothing to do with performing rights of the published work.

A similar case is that of an old sound recording, which can be copied and re-issued by another recording company (generally after 50 years of its production) - which does not mean that the composer's copyright of the recorded piece is being erased!

You must consider that this Quartet by Brun was not published in the USA, but in Switzerland, and there are different publishing laws. Many printed scores have copyright renewals, which means that it can go on and on eternally - and each new edition by another publisher must be arranged through new contracts.

Again, this has nothing to do with the performance fee of a copyrighted work - whose laws are worldwide:
70, 75 or 95 years after the composer's death, depending on different special cases.
There is the talk in Europe to even go up to 100 years.

See US Law here:
https://www.pdinfo.com/copyright-law/music-copyright-law.php
Most English/US people do not realize that the term of "copyright" refer to two different domains. In German regions we have a clear term for "Urheberrecht" (owner's right) and "Verlagsrecht" (publisher's right). An "owner" is, of course the "creator" of the work. So there are different laws for each and there are also different state companies administrating these. In some cases, an "owner" may cede all his rights to a publisher, but this is generally not happening with musical works.

---

But let me ask you, eschiss1 : what is the problem you have with this score? Do you want to republish it or upload it to IMSLP - or to have it performed?? In this thread you ask if there was a recording. I said no. Be sure, this work is performance copyrighted until 2029, no matter in which form the score has been published.

[Alan Howe]

I'm pretty sure Eric will be wanting to upload to IMSLP...

[adriano]

... what I presume too. And in this case, IMSLP may be confronted with a fat penalty fee. But they are not as naive as that.

[eschiss1]

Performing rights are another matter entirely. I refer in all cases to rights of physical print/digital reproduction of books and musical scores, the rules regarding which have been regularized within the European Union, take a certain form in the United States, and a third form in Canada. If the work was published very recently (since 1977), life+90 applies, but certain other rules apply for older works (and even then sometimes only if they have been regularly and properly renewed with relevant copyright-granting offices- one reason Brian's symphony no.1 in print form (score, original edition and unaltered reprints) is out of copyright in the US is that its original 1932 publisher (August Cranz) failed to renew it with the LoC here around 1960 as required, iirc.

As to Brun's quartet, since it was first published in 1923 and is out of copyright in the US and in Canada, and IMSLP is successfully hosting many works out of copyright in the US and Canada that are still in copyright in Europe as Brun's quartet is, why would hosting Brun's quartet specifically, which is not in copyright in Canada (where IMSLP is hosted) or in the US (where I would be uploading it) cause a penalty fee?

(If it's because Brun's quartet would be in principle downloadable in Europe, actually, IMSLP went through this with Universal Edition about a decade ago, and the safeguards the site put in place then - after going offline for two years - were deemed adequate. I assumed people were aware of that...)

[adriano]

Well, eschiss1, just try and good luck :-) I see that IMSL has no other Brun scores uploads previous to 1923, and this may be a good precaution.
Anyway, will contact our main copyright responsible over here tomorrow. He is also an expert of international copyright.

[eschiss1]

I may, if I ever obtain a copy of the score or parts. I'm guessing the answer is No to my original question

(which if anyone bothered to read it, was whether or not it had ever been _recorded_.)

By the way, I'm surprised I didn't catch this about 20 entries ago, but Brilliant is misspelled in the Subject line... (indeed with a bit of transposition from "lli" to "ill" it could almost look French)

[adriano]

eschiss1
1) I answered your question about a recording - and said no, which means that there is none
2) I could provide with a copy of score and parts, but this not before I have cleared the publishing copyright question. Over here no one is allowed to copy score and parts - unless for private use - but you are looking forward to a public use
3) As far as this thread's title correct spelling of "Brilliant" Classic is concerned: this was an innocent typing mistake of mine - which Alan will surely correct (with my thanks). I am deeply sorry for this, but nobody is perfect...

[TerraEpon]

2) I could provide with a copy of score and parts, but this not before I have cleared the publishing copyright question. Overe here no one is allowed to copy score and parts - unless for private use - but you are looking forward to a public use

But the way copyright works, even if "over there" (I assume you're in Italy?) one can't, one in Canada could given Brun died in 1959. And in the US, as long as it was published over 95 years ago (meaning 1923 or possibly 24 now....not sure which counts) this is also true.

[eschiss1]

(3) was my failed attempt to lighten the mood before I caught up on much-needed sleep (Pas brillantement accompli, Éric.)

[adriano]

"Over here" is Switzerland, Brun's native country. Sorry, but I can't understand your sentence, TerraEpon. What do you exactly mean? Also some of eschiss1's sentences are quite difficult to understand. But I speak and read English very well.