Intoducing Others to the non-standard Repertoire.

[John H White]

 How should one go about introducing a dyed in the wool rider of war horses to the world of unsung composers?

[Amphissa]

.
Which war horses? Even those who love the core repertoire usually prefer some composers over others. Does the person love Bach and Mahler and Rachmaninoff equally?

[Mark Thomas]

I've found that the best approach is to put a piece of music which you love on in the background, Spohr or Lachner in your case I guess John, without mentioning that they won't know it. It's a great mistake to say "You won't know this but I think it's great" or to be evangelical about it. Wait until they say "What's this?" and then you can start the conversation, but gently. Be patient. People who think that all forgotten music is forgotten for a good reason are often hard nuts to crack. Better let them discover the joys of the unsung with just some diffident low key help from you.

[John H White]

Thanks Mark, that sounds to me as being a very sensible course of action.

[Alan Howe]

....on the other hand there are some genuinely adventurous and open-minded folk out there (I know some!) who simply don't know much music beyond the standard repertoire and react very favourably to having their horizons extended.

[Steve B]

I have tried the Moszkowski piano concerto in the background, leading to (fairly!) enthusiastic responses of " what was that"? So, perhaps your subtle approach works, Mark. Perhaps don't start with the Garafalo Syymphony:)(fun though it be)Steve

[John H White]

Following on from Amphissa and Marks useful contributions to this debate, I've now thought up some suggestions for riders of various warhorses:-
(1) for Mozart enthusiasts I'd go for Josef Netzer's 1st Symphony.
(2) for Beethoven enthusiasts, any of Ferdinand Ries's earlier symphonies or piano concertos.
(3)for Mendelssohn buffs, how about Sterndale Bennett's 4th piano concerto?
(4) for Brahmsians, there seem to be plenty of choice including Parry's 4th symphony, Rontgen's 3rd Symphony and Gernsheim's 1st symphony, to say nothing of the myriad chamber works by many of Brahms's followers.
(5) for Mahler buffs we'd need to include Hans Rott's Symphony in E upon which Mahler modelled his own 1st Symphony 10 years after.

[Mark Thomas]

Try as I may, I can fault none of those, John! Alan's point is well made. I was just assuming that the question implied the likelihood of resistance to something new.

[eschiss1]

....on the other hand there are some genuinely adventurous and open-minded folk out there (I know some!) who simply don't know much music beyond the standard repertoire and react very favourably to having their horizons extended.

Even non-classical fanatics have reacted very well when I've played sonatas by Robert Fuchs in the background, I've noticed. (I recommend chamber and piano music when not around people who are determined classical music fans, though And found new friends, possibly, for Magnard's (in Plasson's recordings yet ... !!) and Melartin's symphonies in other contexts- but anyway.
Eric

[thalbergmad]

There is only a certain amount that one can do for those people who seem to fear to tread outside of the norm. I do think that playing them something and not telling them who the composer is could work in some cases, as some might "switch off" at the mention of a composer that is unknown to them.

Over the years, I appear almost to have reached the other end of the spectrum, where I will not listen/play something if the composer is well known. To play something that has probably not been played for 100 years is appealing to me, but probably not for professional pianists that need to sell CD's and put bums on concert hall sets.

There are some etudes by Goria sitting on my piano, so i'm off.

Thal

[JimL]

...and put bums on concert hall sets.

There's a double entendre here that shouldn't be missed.  Unless you don't refer to indigents as "bums" in the UK.

[ahinton]

And found new friends, possibly, for Magnard's (in Plasson's recordings yet ... !!)

At least all four are now recorded and easily available, thought quite why these high points of French symphonic literature (especially the latter two) are so rarely aired in public performance I have less than no idea. Magnard was one of the major figures in French music from the generation of Debussy and Ravel, along with Koechlin and Roussel (of whom the latter also composed four symphonies, the latter two of which are splendid, but at least they do get played!).

[eschiss1]

And found new friends, possibly, for Magnard's (in Plasson's recordings yet ... !!)

At least all four are now recorded and easily available, thought quite why these high points of French symphonic literature (especially the latter two) are so rarely aired in public performance I have less than no idea. Magnard was one of the major figures in French music from the generation of Debussy and Ravel, along with Koechlin and Roussel (of whom the latter also composed four symphonies, the latter two of which are splendid, but at least they do get played!).

and the 2nd of Koechlin's symphonies, anyway, should, even though it's arranged or largely arranged from various earlier works. It's striking and well worth one's time!
As far as I know the first two Magnard symphonies are only in manuscript (photocopies of which have been scanned into imslp.org , but performers and performances still need parts...) - I'm not sure whether the estate, or a publisher, or something, controls who has access to existing manuscript parts etc. ... at least his 3rd and 4th symphonies exist in accessible study scores, etc.  They aren't performed often, but maybe a little more often.
I regret that I will be missing his Bérénice next year in NYC but I am so glad it will be produced (I don't recall disliking Botstein performances I've heard here and there so I won't even put in a pro forma bit about any mixed feelings about Botstein as seems indeed to be ... etc.)
And the 4th symphony reminds me - intending nothing at all negative by the comparison, rather the contrary really- of movies that have to be seen on the big screen and not on video; I've only heard it on tape and radio, but there are effects in it - and other things - that seem practically physical and that I am quite sure have their full effect in live concert (e.g. in the first movement, the chromatic wind and brass call when the music moves into 12/8 - page 9? of the score, it seems, downloaded from imslp.org again.) They're plenty impressive on recording, mind, I just keep imagining what it would be like to hear that live (and I wonder why I missed an opportunity to hear one of Magnard's symphonies a bit back in NYC - finances and work I expect, but still.)

(All the number of times I heard Mahler 5 on radio and on CD enabled me to learn the piece, more or less, after a first unsatisfactory live hearing, but a second live performance (by a school orchestra...) became the memory to really treasure. Not the best comparison, I suppose.)
Eric

[ahinton]

And found new friends, possibly, for Magnard's (in Plasson's recordings yet ... !!)

At least all four are now recorded and easily available, thought quite why these high points of French symphonic literature (especially the latter two) are so rarely aired in public performance I have less than no idea. Magnard was one of the major figures in French music from the generation of Debussy and Ravel, along with Koechlin and Roussel (of whom the latter also composed four symphonies, the latter two of which are splendid, but at least they do get played!).

and the 2nd of Koechlin's symphonies, anyway, should, even though it's arranged or largely arranged from various earlier works. It's striking and well worth one's time!
As far as I know the first two Magnard symphonies are only in manuscript (photocopies of which have been scanned into imslp.org , but performers and performances still need parts...) - I'm not sure whether the estate, or a publisher, or something, controls who has access to existing manuscript parts etc. ... at least his 3rd and 4th symphonies exist in accessible study scores, etc.  They aren't performed often, but maybe a little more often.

All four are available on CD; see http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=210871&source=CLOFO#review.

[jerfilm]

Alan is absolutely right on - many folks simply don't know any better.  If they listen to public radio here in the States, they might.  But they surely won't learn it in the concert hall.

Friday night, after a fire alarm evacuated Orchestra Hall in Minneapolis (a short in the elevator) we got a Rossini Overture, Dvorak 8th and the Cello Concerto of William Walton.  Now, on Saturday, how many of the 2000 listeners will remember ANYTHING about the concerto?  Except that it wasn't particularly pleasant listening.  I kept thinking,, why not one of Julius Klengel's concertos?  Or Emil Hartmann?  Or even Victor Herbert? 

And it goes onand on, season after season.  For 50 years I've tried to get them to do Dream of Gerontius - without succcess.  And that doesn't even put them into "unsung" territory.