The Greatest Unsung American Symphony?

[BFerrell]

I still consider Harold Shapero's Symphony for Classical Orchestra "unsung" and far and away the greatest American symphony.

[Alan Howe]

I agree about Shapero's Symphony. It badly needs a really good modern performance, though.

[Latvian]

I don't really do well with these "greatest" lists, because I enjoy different works for different reasons at different times. To say one is the greatest and another is not, or even that one is better than another, when I like them all, is difficult for me.

I agree!

I also haven't gone back through the entire thread to check on past nominees, but off the top of my head, I strongly endorse Randall Thompson's 2nd Symphony.

Some runners-up currently on my mind: William Schuman's 8th & Walter Piston's 6th.

[Ser Amantio di Nicolao]

I'm glad to see some other votes for Don Gillis.  I only own one disc in the Albany cycle (the one with the 5th, I think?  Have to check when I get home.), but I recall being most impressed with his music upon first hearing it.

[Dundonnell]

Funny that you should mention Don Gillis. I have just been writing about his music on another forum

To be entirely honest, I find Gillis a pretty feeble composer and, yes, I did collect the entire Albany set

Why on earth Albany considered his music worthy of an integral symphonic set whilst really great American composers like Walter Piston, David Diamond, Peter Mennin, George Rochberg or even Paul Creston have been ignored in that respect is totally beyond my understanding. One can collect all the Piston and Mennin symphonies conducted by different conductors and similarly all the Creston(bar No.6-which can be downloaded from this site) but there is no recording of David Diamond's 11th and final symphony. Naxos appeared to have stalled their Roy Harris series now too It was left to a German company-CPO-to record the Antheil.

It really is a tragedy that the greatest of American symphonists should be ignored in this way What the USA needs-with the greatest respect-are companies like Chandos, Dutton and Hyperion doing the same job for American music as has been done over the last couple of decades for British music.

[Ser Amantio di Nicolao]

It really is a tragedy that the greatest of American symphonists should be ignored in this way What the USA needs-with the greatest respect-are companies like Chandos, Dutton and Hyperion doing the same job for American music as has been done over the last couple of decades for British music.

You'll get no argument from me on that count.  Honestly, the treatment of American music in general by American record companies (and orchestras, and performing arts organizations, *grumble*) borders on criminal sometimes.  It's depressing - there's so much that could, and ought, to be recorded, which is languishing for want of a standard-bearer.  I admire the work that Naxos is doing, but it kind of depresses me that it's been left to a foreign company, and foreign orchestras, to begin closing the gap.

Albany sometimes pulls a surprise out of the hat, but that's about as far as it goes, I fear.

Oh, well.  At least now I know what I'll do if ever I win the lottery. 

[Latvian]

Albany sometimes pulls a surprise out of the hat, but that's about as far as it goes, I fear.

I really have to come to Albany Records' defense here. They've done an extraordinary service for American music over the past couple of decades! Sure, they haven't done any complete cycles of Diamond, Harris, Piston, Creston, or Mennin, among other acknowledged "major" American composers, but they have indeed issued individual symphonies by all the above, including several premiere recordings. They've offered beautifully remastered reissues of vintage Columbia material, such as the John Vincent Symphony. I can't think of any other American-based company that has done as much.

Admittedly, proportionately speaking, the British companies mentioned above have probably collectively issued more "unsung" British music. I'm not certain what the reasons are -- better funding, a bigger market, better press, or some combination of the above? I suspect that despite whatever shortcomings there may be in arts education in both countries, there is still a larger percentage of the populace in the UK that has more appreciation for the arts than in the USA. The state of arts education in most USA schools is pathetic!

As to the objections to the Gillis cycle -- granted, Gillis' music is generally "light" (and in some cases very "light" or even "slight"). But it's excellently crafted and worthy of hearing (even if some of it leaves me cold, too). Looking at it from an "unsung" point of view, there has been a lot of interest in Gillis' music over the years. Albany has fulfilled many collector's fantasies, and we no longer anticipate a "what does the rest of Gillis' music sound like?" thread on this forum, do we? Perhaps several years from now we'll have the luxury of hypothetically asking "why did cpo waste their time and money on a Julius Weismann cycle when they could have done a Johann Nepomuk David cycle?"

Ultimately, R&R decisions come down to money. Unless a patron comes forward to underwrite a pet project, Albany and other companies have to decide whether a give project will give them a return on their investment to keep the company going or to fund future projects, or even to just not lose too much money.

Anyway, I firmly believe that Albany has done yeoman service for American composers and as far as I know will continue to do so.

[Dundonnell]

You make some very fair points, Latvian, and I will concede that I was overly-harsh on Albany

Snatching at random some of their cds from my shelves I have the Piston 4th, 5th, 7th and 8th symphonies, the Harris 7th, the Persichetti 4th, the Schuman 6th(albeit in reissues of old LPs), and the Harris 2nd, 8th and 9th, the Piston 3rd, the Creston 4th, the Persichetti 3rd, 4th and 7th,  the Schuman 4th, the Gould 3rd and the Harbison 3rd in more modern recordings (in most cases with the Albany Symphony Orchestra under David Alan MIller).

That is certainly not a poor output of the music of the great American symphonists .......but I do get the distinct impression that this type of output has diminished considerably over the last few years. I know that I used to buy Albany cds on a fairly regular basis but have been buying far fewer more recently. Their catalogue contains scores and scores of composers whose names are completely unknown to me. Do these composers sell I don't know.....except they don't sell to me

However, I am happy to withdraw part at least of my criticism of the company and give credit to what it has done

[Latvian]

That is certainly not a poor output of the music of the great American symphonists .......but I do get the distinct impression that this type of output has diminished considerably over the last few years. I know that I used to buy Albany cds on a fairly regular basis but have been buying far fewer more recently. Their catalogue contains scores and scores of composers whose names are completely unknown to me. Do these composers sell I don't know.....except they don't sell to me

However, I am happy to withdraw part at least of my criticism of the company and give credit to what it has done

I appreciate your respose, Colin! I do agree that they've been releasing fewer items that interest me as well recently. However, I know that part of the reason for that is more reliance on privately funded (and selected) repertoire that Albany is not subsidizing, and is not necessarily a reflection of the label's owners' own interests, which I know prominently include the big names we've been discussing here. Do these other releases sell? With a minimal financial investment by the label and a reasonable degree of selectiveness, they sell well enough to subsidize the more important releases we yearn for, and which would need to sell in far, far greater quantities on their own to justify further releases. Again, it all comes down to money.

Would I subsidize recordings of "unsung" repertoire I'm dying to hear, and insufficiently played repertoire I feel should get either better recordings and/or wider exposure than they've received heretofore? You betcha!

Unfortunately, I haven't won the lottery yet, so I can only dream, and settle for what Albany and others give us, while doing what I can to influence their recording decisions! (and reveling in the treasures we're all sharing here, your contributions high among them!)

[Ser Amantio di Nicolao]

Albany sometimes pulls a surprise out of the hat, but that's about as far as it goes, I fear.

Anyway, I firmly believe that Albany has done yeoman service for American composers and as far as I know will continue to do so.

Oh, I never meant to imply otherwise - the "I fear" was more to do with the fact that they are the only label doing such a service for American composers, as far as I can see.  I applaud them as well for all that they have done.

As to the question about arts education - it goes beyond that, I fear.  There's a fundamental suspicion of classical music, I'd say, in many circles of American culture today.  Right or wrong, it's viewed as the province of the "ee-lite".  This is reinforced by much of what's on television.  Rich people, who are poncy and stuck-up, are the only people who go to the opera; kids who play classical music a.) bore everyone around them to sleep and b.) are miserable because they want to be playing "fun" stuff.  (Both are actual examples drawn from television series I've seen.)   Orchestras don't boost American music enough, and the schools that do teach music history don't teach a great deal of American music as part of the curriculum, so there's no sense of national "art musical" identity.  Additionally, classical music has been kept out of the mainstream for much of the past fifty years, and it's only just now starting to allow itself back in. 

The result has been a winnowing of national pride, at least as far as the arts.  The question of elite-ness is key; why care about art if you can't see that it has a place in your life?  And how can it have a place in your life if you've developed a notion that it shouldn't, and then had that notion reinforced with pop-culture shorthand?

I'm probably talking out of my hat, as I am prone to do (which anybody will tell you).     I do think there's hope for the future, though.  Now all we need is an adventurous record company...

[Latvian]

As to the question about arts education - it goes beyond that, I fear.  There's a fundamental suspicion of classical music, I'd say, in many circles of American culture today.  Right or wrong, it's viewed as the province of the "ee-lite".  This is reinforced by much of what's on television.  Rich people, who are poncy and stuck-up, are the only people who go to the opera; kids who play classical music a.) bore everyone around them to sleep and b.) are miserable because they want to be playing "fun" stuff.  (Both are actual examples drawn from television series I've seen.)   Orchestras don't boost American music enough, and the schools that do teach music history don't teach a great deal of American music as part of the curriculum, so there's no sense of national "art musical" identity.  Additionally, classical music has been kept out of the mainstream for much of the past fifty years, and it's only just now starting to allow itself back in. 

The result has been a winnowing of national pride, at least as far as the arts.  The question of elite-ness is key; why care about art if you can't see that it has a place in your life?  And how can it have a place in your life if you've developed a notion that it shouldn't, and then had that notion reinforced with pop-culture shorthand?

Very eloquently put, and very much on target, I'm afraid. Unfortunately the stereotypes you cite in your comments are all too true, and not only endorsed but actively reinforced by our pop culture society. The depth of culture ignorance I encounter on a daily basis is not just saddening, but disheartening.

My wife and I are both trained musicians, with music degrees. We have two daughters who both caught the music "bug" from us, and are now in college studying music. As we watched and heard them develop and grow musically throughout their public school years, we saw what music did for them as persons, helping provide a sense of worth, teaching them self-discipline, giving them pride in their accomplishments, learning to work with others, giving them goals and focus in their lives, and showing them how hard work is rewarded when they went on concert tours thanks to the results of their preparation. THIS is what I feel is lacking in many young people's lives, and they often turn to shallower, easier, and more culturally "acceptable" interests out of boredom, frustration, neglect, and apathy. Our culture doesn't encourage true achievement in general.

I fear we've gotten quite off-topic here, but I had to get these thoughts off my chest!

[Ser Amantio di Nicolao]

Very eloquently put, and very much on target, I'm afraid. Unfortunately the stereotypes you cite in your comments are all too true, and not only endorsed but actively reinforced by our pop culture society. The depth of culture ignorance I encounter on a daily basis is not just saddening, but disheartening.

My wife and I are both trained musicians, with music degrees. We have two daughters who both caught the music "bug" from us, and are now in college studying music. As we watched and heard them develop and grow musically throughout their public school years, we saw what music did for them as persons, helping provide a sense of worth, teaching them self-discipline, giving them pride in their accomplishments, learning to work with others, giving them goals and focus in their lives, and showing them how hard work is rewarded when they went on concert tours thanks to the results of their preparation. THIS is what I feel is lacking in many young people's lives, and they often turn to shallower, easier, and more culturally "acceptable" interests out of boredom, frustration, neglect, and apathy. Our culture doesn't encourage true achievement in general.

I fear we've gotten quite off-topic here, but I had to get these thoughts off my chest!

Well, it is the American symphony thread... 

I think that things are getting better, slowly...and part of that has been the thawing of classical music with regards to the culture around it.  One of the reasons classical music has always been viewed as a world apart, I think, is that it has set itself apart.  One of the reasons I love Alex Ross is that he is willing to admit a love for both Bartok and the Velvet Underground.  I may not share his tastes, but I'm glad that he's willing to admit them...I've known plenty of critics who are snobbish about their interests.  (Speaking of whom - he linked once to a fascinating New Republic article on the question.  It laid out the main points of the music-snobbery question in remarkably lucid fashion, even if I didn't agree with all of its conclusions.)

From my own perspective - I'm 27, and judging by the audience I see at some cultural events (not all, mind...the NSO still has a long way to go to make things better) things are starting to change.  I live in the DC suburbs, which means I have access to a decent roster of concerts.  There are new groups being added - there's a new chamber opera group in Arlington called UrbanArias - even as a couple of the old mainstays are falling by the wayside.  And there are the constants - the Library of Congress series, the Dumbarton Oaks series.  Now I'll admit, I don't partake of many of these things regularly; I may or not may be notoriously poor at scheduling stuff.   But over the past few years I think the audience has started to skew younger.  I know it has at the opera...because there are cheap-ticket promotions targeted at young people.

The reasons for the change?  There I'm not sure, honestly - I'll get back to you when I figure something out.

[Amphissa]

The marginalization of classical music from the mainstream of American culture is really part of a much larger problem -- the rampant anti-intellectualism that pervades the country. Despite lip-service to education, in practice, there is little real commitment to substantive education by federal and state governments, and a deep skepticism of education by the general populace. A part of this derives from the very vocal and powerful religious right, which condemns science and history as the enemy of religious faith, propounding creationism and its variants in the schools. Another contributor is the ongoing effort to equate education with liberalism, socialism and other "anti-American" values. One need only look at the line-up of morons trotted out as presidential candidates, whose combined IQ might be equal to that of a rock, to note the healthy distaste for education.

In this environment, I can understand why American record labels are very cautious releasing recordings of American composers. In the U.S., a classical CD with sales of 200 in a week is counted a huge hit. Sales that high are typically limited to pretty women with a website filled with alluring photos recording a couple of warhorses.

Sorry if this seems overly critical and pessimistic, but I am not optimistic that American labels will ever record more than a small sampling of music by American composers, and even less optimistic that we'll hear them in concert.

[BFerrell]

Amphissa, hits nail on head!!

[semloh]

The marginalization of classical music from the mainstream of American culture is really part of a much larger problem -- the rampant anti-intellectualism that pervades the country.. ........   

Couldn't agree more with your characterization of America's anti-intellectualism, although it's not just an American phenomenon of course! 

I can't say which I think is the single greatest, 'unsung'' American symphony. The irony is that we can only propose a symphony we know, which leaves out the countless, grossly unsung symphonies which we don't know! 

Although these are available on CD, so not sure they really count... I think my shortlist would include:

• Randall Thompson – 3rd
  Roy Harris - 6th - 'Gettysburg'
  John Knowles Paine – 2nd