Incomplete and unsung

[matesic]

I'd make a distinction between the adaptation of completed works (among which I'd also include Stravinsky's appropriations of Pergolesi and Tchaikovsky) and those in which large tracts of music have been invented in a conscious attempt to emulate the existing fragments or torso. In the former case the result can be regarded as a composite work of art and we always have the original to compare. Giles cites a number of unfinished works which have been completed by close associates of the composer and this, too, I think is justified if the composer left sufficient evidence of the overall structure he had in mind. And no express prohibition!

When I listen to major pieces by the great and even many not-so-great composers I feel like I've been taken inside their unique world. Probably I was prejudiced from the outset, but I've never had that feeling with Elgar/Payne. Similarly contentious, I'd say, is his completion of the Pomp and Circumstance March No.6 in which he admits to having composed almost half the music. In order to do this he says he tried to "become" Elgar in the way an actor would assume a stage role. For a man as complex as EWE, this really won't wash.

But it's a free(-ish) world and people like me have no right to dictate to others what they should and shouldn't do. Fortunately we don't have to apply to a judicial committee in order to have our musical works, interpretations and opinions validated.

Finally Giles, I'm not sure where the Dohnanyi Variations come in but I think they're hilarious! And does the world really need a "complete" Edwin Drood?

[TerraEpon]

Debussy- Petite Suite, Rhapsodie, Khamma....Satie- Gymnopedies orchestrated.

Not sure why you mention any of these here. Petite Suite, Rhapsody (I assume you mean the saxophone one) and Gymnopedies are simple orchestrations of pieces no different than thousands upon thousands of others. Though in at least the case of the Petite Suite, it was sactioned by the compose himself so it's even less relevant to the topic. Khamma even LESS so since it (and La Boite a Jeux Jeux as well as La Metyr de St Sebastien) for I guess reasons of time had his colleges orchestrate them but had some input....not really any different than the job of an orchestrator for a film score or musical. Certainly not at all related to a 'completion after death'/

There is also the question of arranger/composers using other composers works. The ballet Les Sylphides springs to mind as does La Boutique Fantastique. Britten based his ballets Matinee Musicales and Soiree Musicales on music by Rossini.

While obviously this is different than the above, none of them claim to be anything they aren't. How could they diminish the 'integrity' of the works?

[eschiss1]

... actually, I am also confused what the Dohnanyi variations set was doing in that list, as I thought it was composed and orchestrated by the composer (Dohnányi).

[giles.enders]

I included the Dohnanyi piece as a bit of a joke as the theme most people will know comes from'Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star'.

[eschiss1]

Ah. Had placed it in the Incomplete category because I missed "There is also the question of arranger/composers using other composers works". Ok, joke aside... in Dohnanyi's case, name the "other composer". And anyway, that means that now we're including every set of variations not "on an original theme"/"eigenes tema"/... - surely too large a discussion to be interesting.

[giles.enders]

Totally agree. Perhaps we could get back to genuinely unfinished works. It would also be helpful to know where the unfinished parts are.
I am not sure anyone genuinely knows who the original composer of TTLS was. But that is for another thread.

[eschiss1]

It would be before our remit, anyway, wouldn't it? After all Mozart used the same theme...


-Some- other incomplete works - these available on IMSLP so far as they exist-
* Sjogren's lyric drama "Gallionsbilden" (ca.1903) (only a brief aria seems to exist)
* Józef Brzowski's septet in A-flat (mid-19thc. ms) (instruments missing from score, needs reconstruction?)
* Continuing - IMSLP has a few Donizetti religious works (eg!) our copies of which, at least, are incomplete, but which might exist more completely elsewhere... looking into..)

[tpaloj]

Liszt pupil Arthur Friedheim's surviving manuscripts showcase several of his unfinished or incomplete works, such as two unfinished operas (barely more than 70 pages total). There's also his partially orchestrated Hammerklavier – about 3/4 done thru the first movement. It might be interesting to compare his orchestration with Weintgartner's.

Friedheim's works have been digitized by the Friedheim Library http://musiclibrary.peabody.jhu.edu/home. (They could use some help sorting through the inventory though, if the digitized files are any indication... several pages from his operas appear erroneously mixed in the other scores for example. The Hammerklavier orchestration is listed as an "unknown work"... etc..)

[eschiss1]

I've gotten interlibrary loans from that library, but did not know he was the Friedheim in q...

[Joachim Raff]

Symphony No.11 Der Winter - Joachim Raff.  . My favourite Symphony

[Mark Thomas]

I'm not sure how Raff's 11th qualifies. It's not incomplete in any way, it was just left unpublished and unperformed by Raff when he died. Erdmannsdörfer's "editing" prior to posthumous publication was just the usual proof-reading. It's certainly unsung, but that's not the point of this thread.

[eschiss1]

has Hugo Wolf's symphony been mentioned?

[Alan Howe]

Do tell us more, Eric...

[eschiss1]

I gather he began 2 or 3 of which 1 or 2 survive, neither complete, plus a torso lost in 1879 (while traveling).
I heard one in B-flat- a torso in two movements- in a broadcast concert decades ago. (Here is a digitized dissertation focusing more in detail on his early piano music but listing also his other instrumental music known and little-known.

[Alan Howe]

Thank you.