Ferdinand Hiller's Symphony in C major

[Reverie]

Congratulations on finishing it tpaloj ! The process can get a bit mind numbing can't it. However the pleasure of rediscovering the composer's thought processes bar by bar is reward enough I think.

[tpaloj]

I think I wrote that, actually... meep.

Well you couldn't be more right Reverie. I've learnt from experience that having multiple projects helps: changing between different scores keeps things interesting and relieves monotony. Right now I'm looking at the Overture to Draeseke's "Fischer and Kalif", the first part of Raff's Dornröschen and Bernhard Scholz's neglected D major Piano Concerto from 1897, all great works – especially the Raff! – that have been a joy to type.

Thank you for checking the Erinnerungsblätter Alan! Shame we don't have any concrete answers. One further additional point that might collaborate a later date for the C major symphony than 1830-1: the fact that the instrument names and transpositions in the score are not in French but rather German/Italian. In the Symphony in E (1831), Hiller writes his instruments/transpositions in French (hautbois [oboe] ut [c] etc etc.) which makes sense since he was still living in Paris. He moved to Frankfurt in 1836 and from that point on it makes sense he would incorporate German habits into his handwriting and scores.

[Mark Thomas]

Your work is greatly appreciated and I'm particularly looking forward to hearing some more of Raff's Dornröschen, of course.

[Alan Howe]

Indeed. And your observations about the use of one language rather than another (in the scores) is also very interesting.

[kolaboy]

Beautiful. Many thanks for sharing it here.

[Alan Howe]

This is certainly 'one of those symphonies', isn't it? By which I mean one of a select group that are just crying out to be performed and recorded. It has intensely memorable themes in all four movements and writing that is often exciting in the extreme. The finale makes a rousing conclusion - and can I hear pre-echoes of Brahms' Haydn Variations? Compare from 9:28 (Variation 6) of the Brahms: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAuqxEMRapg.

All we need is more background information on its date of composition. If early (1830-1), it would be remarkable. If later, it would still be an outstanding piece of writing.

[eschiss1]

I get now anyway that there aren't -two- Hiller C major symphonies (1830s and 1870s) as I thought ; the clarinet parts, I see from IMSLP, to the "1830s" C major symphony contain markings like "1878.2...." etc "Bremen" (confirmed by an announcement I found, while looking for some info about premiere dates of Hiller's op.172- still no luck there,- of a performance of a Hiller C major symphony in Bremen in an 1878 Neue Zeitschrift, if one needs such confirmation ) - indeed all the marked-up performance parts at GUF of Hiller's C major symphony are from 1877-1880...

[tpaloj]

Indeed Eric, the dating of Hiller's symphonies is difficult. Such a small act of dating his manuscripts would have cleared the entire matter up so easily...!! At the moment, my thinking is along these lines:

- Symphony [No.1] in E minor (1829-1831)*
- Symphony [No.2] "Symphonie de Victoire" (1830)** LOST
- Symphony [No.3] in F minor (1832-1833)
- Symphony [No.4] in E minor Op. 67 "Es muss doch Frühling werden" (1847)
- Symphony [No.5] in G major "In Freien" (ca.1852?) LOST
- Symphony [No.6] in C major (ca.1877?)***

NOTES:
* The case of the early Symphonies in E is complex. There have ever existed either one or two with conflicting evidence against each case:

1) The 'Allegro' incipit for a "Symphonie für grosses Orchester [in E]" in his 1829 composition diary doesn't match the Symphony in E minor [Mus HS 87]. But Hiller states that he rewrote the Allegro of the Symphony in E minor in 1831 ("Allegro dazu umgearbeitet, --"), so the 1829 incipit might have been made obsolete.

2) The book "Proportio artificiosa raro usitata --" states that the Symphony in E minor [Mus HS 87] was premiered on December 4, 1831. The Revue Musicales 1831 articles certainly prove that a "Symphonie à grand orchestre" composed by Hiller was performed, but the concert review is too vague to definitely say it was the E minor one.

3) Berlioz writes, in 1835, definitely referring to the Symphony in E minor [Mus HS 87], that it was one of Hiller's earliest compositions. A footnote in the book "Berlioz on Music: Selected Criticism 1824-1837" states that this Symphony Berlioz is referring to was composed in 1829 and first performed on March 23, 1833, conflicting with the above source. The March 23, 1833 concert does indeed feature a "Nouvelle symphonie à grand orchestre, composée par F. Hiller". The wording 'nouvelle' (new) implies it is not the same work that was performed in December 4, 1831.

4) The conclusions I can draw are in favor of claiming that the 1829 "Symphonie für grosses Orchester [in E]", which originally had a different Allegro movement, was revised and is the same work as the Symphony in E minor [Mus HS 87]. Either the "Symphonie de Victoire" (now lost) or the F minor Symphony (without a revised Finale) was the 'new symphony' premiered in the March 23, 1833 concert. I don't know where the claim that the Symphony performed in this concert has the key of A originates from. I could not collaborate any such notion in the Revue Musicales 1833 articles regarding this concert.


** The entry in Hiller's 1830 composition diary for this Symphony does not name a key, but incipits suggest either C minor or E-flat major. The single diary entry is detailed, including incipits from all four movements. The state of the manuscript is uncertain; presumed lost.

*** In view of all the evidence, and absence of any mentions of this work in Hiller's early correspondence and diaries, I suggest a later date than the previously assumed 1830-1. In any case, the sources at my disposal are few and better study on the subject would be needed to make an absolute claim to this effect.

[Mark Thomas]

A fascinating, and convincing, exercise in musicological detective work. Thanks. The C major symphony would certainly be very advanced for the 1830s, less so for 40 years later. Is there no biography or autobiography on Hiller which might shed some light on all this?

[Alan Howe]

So: which symphonies do we actually have in full score? Can we leave out the 'don't knows' and list the ones we actually have for sure (regardless of date)?

[tpaloj]

I don't know any complete English biography of Hiller to exist (please correct me if someone knows of one!). The strangely titled Proportio artificiosa raro usitata appears to be the most complete account written on the composer but, written in German, its contents are largely out of my reach. Hiller's two composition diaries are also important sources to consult. They contain many entries + incipits related to his early symphonies.
https://www.amazon.com/Proportio-artificiosa-raro-usitata-Ferdinand/dp/3487157128

Scores that exist:
- Symphony in E minor (which I've denoted as Mus HS 87 above) in four movements, ending in Chants des Pirates. Both Hiller's autograph and a copyist's full score survive. It was not published, though.
- Symphony in F (1832 with revised Finale in 1833). Hiller's autograph. By the way, I was smiling all the way skimming through the Finale movement of this one! Might be worth looking into at some point. Eric, you made a few parts to this, I'm wondering how far did you get...?
- Symphony in C. Hiller's autograph.
- Symphony in E minor Op. 67 "Es muss doch Frühling werden", full score was published around 1850-60s I think.

All above scores can be found on IMSLP. The "Symphonische Phantasie Op.127" could be considered very close to the genre of Symphony, as well. The other symphonies are only known to exist by other evidence, no scores have surfaced. The "Symphonie de Victoire" has a sizeable, detailed entry in Hiller's early composition diary. Symphony in G major "In Freien" was apparently mentioned performed in a London concert in 1852.

[Alan Howe]

Right, thanks. So we actually possess four complete symphonies. Is it probable, then, that the Symphony in E minor Op.67 ('Es muss doch Frühling werden') is the last of them?

To my ears Op.67...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc7VMLY6xY0
...sounds later than the C major (which seems to be very Beethovenian in the manner of Mendelssohn's C minor Symphony):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY22op-F0bc&feature=youtu.be

[eschiss1]

We only have one source for the symphony "Im Freien", and no reason to suppose it wasn't a typo for something else, so I'd probably put a question mark next to it. (Misreadings of E minor works as G major works (and similar mistransposition) were astonishingly - given the education level of the writers - common in journals, worklists, HMB, etc. etc. etc. of the time, and it wouldn't surprise me to see one motto confused with another, either.)

[Wheesht]

The Proportio artificiosa raro usitata book by Michael Gehlmann apparently contains the first comprehensive list of Hiller's works. The table of contents at least can be downloaded using this link and clicking on "Inhaltsverzeichnis". If nobody beats me to it, I could get that book the next time I go to the library.

[tpaloj]

It's also worth mentioning that the Hiller manuscripts in the Goethe-Universität Frankfurt Library have been catalogued in extensive detail by Christine Ihl. Her catalogue (in two volumes) can be downloaded as PDF files on the library's website. She has even gone to the trouble of notating incipits for a large amount of works, and transcribing lyrics of any manuscripts containing them. Thanks to her catalogue, I was intrigued to find out Hiller had composed a setting on "Der gefesselte Prometheus", with a manuscript score running up to some 366 pages, not to mention a few other interesting entries including a Clarinet concerto and the ever-elusive Violin Concerto dedicated to Joseph Joachim...