Felix Weingartner (1863-1942)

[Peter1953]

Recently I wanted something new and started to discover symphonic works of Weingartner. I bought the Symphonies 1-6 and the VC (all on cpo). I've noticed that Weingartner has been discussed in some topics, but not in detail (maybe in the old forum?).

I'm very interested in the opinions of members.

[jerfilm]

I like the symphonies but the surprise, for me at least, was the lovely Violin Concerto.  I was most surprised I guess by how "romantic" it really was.

[petershott@btinternet.com]

Greetings, younger Peter! Pursue your explorations. There is often an assumption that the legacy of some of the great conductors who have turned their hand to composing lies in their conducting rather than their composing (with the very obvious exception of Mahler!) - that seems to be the general view of, for example, Bruno Walter, Furtwangler, Skrowaczewski (and I'll be provocative and add, IMHO, Bernstein!).

I obviously never heard Weingartner conduct. But, on the strength of what CPO has given us, I hold him to be a little more than a first rate composer of second rate music. In other words he is not a great composer - but well on the way to being one. There's little 'revolutionary' about the compositions: it hardly ever sounds as if nearly all his work was composed in the first half of the 20th century - it is more traditional and inhabits the world of his own idols. The use of the orchestra is first rate (but then I suppose he had lots of practice and formidable knowledge of orchestral sounds!) - there are many utterly lovely passages (try the Violin Concerto) and some especially solemn and imposing passages of noble grandeur.

I'll stick out my neck with one probably too hasty generalisation: the shorter he is the better! Some of the more extended symphonies (the 3rd for example) have such elaborate structures that its sometimes hard to see where the music is going (I found I had to work hard on these with repeated listenings - perhaps that is my fault). I'm also clueless as to why the Sixth Symphony is titled 'La Tragica' - maybe I just haven't seized hold of it properly. In contrast where I think he is absolutely spot on is in some of the shorter pieces and symphonic poems that are included with the symphonies in the CPO series. Try the Op 80 Fruhling (included with Symphony 6) - it is a lovely piece.

However - and apologies for the ramble - really first rate Weingartner I believe is found in the chamber music. CPO are just up to Volume 2 of the String Quartets (the latter also includes the Op 40 String Sextet). Add on the CPO recordings of the Op 33 Sextet and Op 73 Octet. Here we surely have a first rate composer of chamber music. It is very rewarding music.

I also add the playing on these CPO discs is excellent - as are the recordings themselves. All entirely subjective views of course - but sincerely held. I get increasingly excited whenever CPO announce a new Weingartner CD. Small point: often the English translations of the notes accompanying these CPO discs are woeful, but then that's not a problem for you.

Warm regards,

Peter (the older!)

[Alan Howe]

Weingartner? A bit of a mixed bag, but when he's good, he's very, very good, and when he's bad he's boring. For me the most enjoyable symphonies are the first three (No.1 somewhat Mendelssohnian/Dvorakian and gorgeous; No.2 a grand mixture of Brahms and Bruckner, but very exciting; No.3 a Straussian - Johann and Richard - confection and a bit of an indulgence). The VC is also beautiful, and not as indulgently romantic as I thought it might be. For me, the jury is out on his later symphonies, but I enjoy parts of them all. A second division composer? Yes, but high up and nudging promotion at times...

[Syrelius]

I fully agree with Alan's analysis!

[Mark Thomas]

Yep, me too, but my jury delivered the thumbs down on the later symphonies some time ago. I'd also put a word in for the symphonic poem Das Gefilde der Seligen (The Elysian Fields?) which is quite gorgeous with it's Straussian shimmerings.

[febnyc]

I have very much enjoyed all the Weingartner releases - as a matter fact, I think he's one of the most appealing conductors-who-also-are-composers.

The chamber works are very good - and especially attractive is the disc with Weingartner's Sextet and Octet.

[eschiss1]

Also hoping someone will get to the opus 42 violin sonatas, by the way...

[Gareth Vaughan]

Is there not a 7th Symphony in  MS still, with a choral finale?

[Alan Howe]

Wikipedia has Symphony No.7 in C major, Op.87.

[eschiss1]

I believe so does a recent Grove's (re sym. 7) but I am not positive.

[Peter1953]

Thank you all for your interesting comments. Peter (the older) has put it right: Weingartner is a little more than a first rate composer of second rate music. But Weingartner wrote some music which I find first class. I'll second Alan's remarks, however, unlike Mark, so far I still like his later symphonies, that is to say, some parts of them. Both inner movements of his Fifth are very beautiful. The scherzo is purely Bruckner, the 'plump little man' he disliked so much according to the booklet notes.
His VC is a real gem. Peter and febnyc are positive about his chamber music. That's something to explore in the near future.

[DennisS]

Again, it is very interesting reading this thread. I bought a number of Weingartner disks ( all on CPO) quite some time ago. I listened to them a bit, and then left them on the shelf. Due to this thread, I got them out again and gave them another listen. I have always liked symphony no 1, especially its elegant writing for the woodwinds in the first movement (very memorable) but even re-listening to the subsequent symphonies, I still found myself a little bored (apologies to all Weingartner lovers). It's difficult to say exactly why this is the case, I guess that, for me at least, the later symphonies don't have the freshness or lyricism of the first symphony. The first also has a lightness of touch that the later symphonies do not - a question of personal taste certainly! Listening again to the first symphony led me to investigate some of his other works on Amazon. I subsequently discovered the VC, and noted that Weingartner is the first to declare that there is a particularly close connection between the VC and the first symphony, from a musical inspiration point of view. I listened to sound bites and immediately ordered the cd. As I write, it is on its way to me. I suspect I will agree with Peter 1953's assessment that this work is a real gem!

cheers
Dennis

[Peter1953]

Just to share my opinion with you, I think Weingartner's finest composition I know so far is his Sextet for piano, two violins, viola, cello and double bass in E minor, op. 33. I'm with you, Peter (the elder) and febnyc. What a delightful piece of chamber music this is. Purely Romantic and intimate, with four movements creating four different atmospheres. A vivid opening movement, followed by a very joyful allegretto. The theme is simple and most appealing. A melody that keeps in your head for a long time. Something similar happens after listening to Raff's 'Gavotte und Musette' in his Piano Suite, op. 200. The adagio has utterly sensitive moments, but after 6:36 minutes the music becomes suddenly more frivolous, although it ends serene. The final movement is a funeral dance, a slow movement of 14:33 minutes of deep-felt music.
The Sextet is coupled with the Octet for piano, clarinet, horn, bassoon, string quartet and piano in G major, op. 73, also in four movements in a late Romantic style (1925). Absolutely very worth listening too, giving the listener a constant flow of beautiful melodies, but IMO without the characteristic sparkling of the Sextet (1906).
With this music Weingartner proves himself definitely as a first class composer. It makes me wonder how his String Quartets sound.

If you love chamber music, this CD is warmly recommended (EUR 7.99 at jpc).

[eschiss1]

I wonder how Weingartner's string quartets sound too, but there are two CDs worth of recordings of them on cpo I think, I just haven't heard them yet (four of the five of them I think?... I'd thought there were only four quartets but cpo seems to have uncovered- as it were- a late 5th in E-flat. Of course, nothing says there isn't a sixth, in that case...)