Felix Weingartner (1863-1942)

[FBerwald]

Does CPO have any plans to record the 7th Symphony in C Major, Op. 87? Is there any way to find out. It could be nicely coupled with the Cello Concerto that's also waiting a much needed recording!!

[Balapoel]

From my perspective, having recently listened to the available recordings, particularly the chamber works, I believe he is one of the better composer-conductors out there (more so than the rather flaccid and motionless (in my opinion) orchestral works by Mahler and Furtwangler).

But I agree with the earlier comments that his best works are the chamber ones, particularly the string quartets. I find his work a logical extension of the directions Beethoven was heading with his last quartets. The only other quartet compositions that have this sense would be Bartok's 1st quartet and Schoenberg's first two quartets.

I would also recommend listeners sample his arrangements/orchestrations: Beethoven's Hammerklavier sonata and Schubert's 7th symphony.

[Alan Howe]

Does CPO have any plans to record the 7th Symphony in C Major, Op. 87?

Unfortunately I have no inside information.

[mbhaub]

... the rather flaccid and motionless (in my opinion) orchestral works by Mahler and Furtwangler...

Ok, it's your opinion, but....Mahler flaccid? I don't know what recordings you're listening to, but I would never, ever consider Mahler flaccid. There's hardly a more virile composer out there. It's far from motionless. You want motionless, try Silvestrov or Gavin Bryars. There's a reason Mahler is so wildly popular and has been for 50 years now. He is one composer who passed from the realm of the Unsung to the over-sung, thanks to the advocacy of Walter, Mitropoulos, Bernstein, Scherchen and a few others. Weingartner, no matter what his strengths as a composer, was no Mahler. I enjoy his music, but then I listen to a lot of unfamiliar music. But Weingartner's output will always remain in the domain of recordings and will never become repertoire works. I'm ok with that. And I agree, as far as conductor-composers go, Weingartner's work is certainly better than most of them. But not Mahler.

[Balapoel]

As I rather prominently said "in my opinion" and "from my perspective". And yes, I will stick with my opinon. Mahler for me tends toward long, drawn out statements with little sense of 'arriving' anywhere. For my taste, his most successful was his last (incomplete) symphony, largely due to the emotion not so subtly expressed. It is just that I tend to prefer tighter constructions, a la Beethoven, Schubert, Dvorak's later symphonies, Brahms, and Tchaikovsky (among the sungs). Similar approaches among unsungs include Cipriani Potter, Eduard Franck, Berwald, Kalivoda, Raff, and Rufinatscha. For these (and others), symphonic structure serves the entire piece, and harmonic progressions move the piece forward inexorably (as in: that phrase 'has to be there'). For me, Mahler doesn't do it. If he does it for others, that's great. Not to stir another hornets nest, but to make my point clearer, I'm not a big fan of Shostakovich's symphonies for similar reasons.

In terms of Silvestrov - yes I've tried it, and I agree, it's even to the motionless side of Mahler. It all depends on where the 'center' is deemed to be. Beyond trying a few pieces (and I try to give every composer a chance), it is a reason I don't listen to Silvestrov's (or much 'modern') music.

[FBerwald]

Lets stick to Weingartner please and hope that we get the 7th Symphony in the next 20 years or so. I am even looking forward to the booklet that will put my Therapist's Children through college!

[Alan Howe]

Mahler has little sense of arriving anywhere? Well, there's a great sense of arrival in 1,2,3,5,7 and 8, surely. No, the problem often seems to be the meandering journeys taken before that definite sense of arrival! But what meanderings...
Anyway, back to Weingartner - a very talented, but essentially derivative composer, I think. I agree that he'll never be admitted to the canon, as it were, but there are some fun works, especially the first three symphonies, the VC and the chamber music. Very enjoyable, very much 'in the tradition', although perhaps the nearest the composer gets to escaping and pursuing a more individual path is in Symphony No.3, which is an absolutely gorgeous, self-indulgent, over-the-top piece. Buy it!!!
BTW Furtwängler is certainly a flaccid composer. Depends whether you have the patience to follow him where he takes you...

[Balapoel]

Well, too each his own - and the caveat, popularity does not equate to quality is apropos. "Many people were thoroughly unconvinced of its artistic merit during Mahler's lifetime, raising objections such as that it was derivative, uninventive, and frequently banal" and that it "privileged superficial effects above substance."[1] Times and opinions change. Someone said it took Mahler an hour plus to say what Richard Strauss could say in 30 minutes...

[1] Here is an interesting (mostly laudatory) dissertation on Mahler's reception(s):
http://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc12141/m1/1/high_res_d/dissertation.pdf

Anyway, back to Weingartner. His work list shows attention to all forms, rather than the very narrow expression of some composers.  I would not be so quick to dismiss chamber music (which I find to be the most intimate form of expression - and apparently, Beethoven considered his most important work to be the string quartet in c# minor). I do not find Weingartner's music to be derivative in the least (conservative yes, derivative no). One of the reviewers mentioned the connection that I think directed my interest first with Weingartner - and that is with Schubert.

To demonstrate I am not alone in this:
"Weingartner considered himself first and foremost a composer, and his music, though conservative to a degree, is almost without exception emotive, beautiful and profound."
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/Apr12/Wiengartner_quartets_2_4_7772532.htm

"It is one of the many great, laudable achievements of that enterprising record label CPO that they are unearthing Weinberger's music piece by piece, CD by CD. For every disc I hear of his chamber or symphonic output, I become more willing to chuck all records of "Weingartner the conductor" and embrace "Weingartner the composer". "
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2008/Sept08/Weingartner_quartets_7772512.htm

"In his recent authoritative study of conductors and the German tradition (The Virtuoso Conductors, Yale UP), Raymond Holden devotes a chapter to Weingartner, remarking 'Weingartner's compositions deserve to be heard'. One has, whole-heartedly, to agree. "
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2006/Mar06/weingartner_symphony_cpo777099.htm

A somewhat more negative review, but interesting that the reviewer claims "Weingartner was no Mahler" in a review of string quartets, which Mahler of course, never attempted.
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2008/Oct08/Weingartner_quartets_7772512.htm

"This is a symphony of rural grandeur."
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/Aug05/Weingartner4_7770982.htm

---------------------

Chamber
24   String Quartet No. 1 in d minor   1898
26   String Quartet No. 2 in f minor   
33   Piano Sextet in e minor   
34   String Quartet No. 3 in F    1903
40   Sring Quintet in C   
42.1   Violin Sonata No. 1, Op. 42/1   
42.2   Violin Sonata No. 2, Op. 42/2   
50   Quintet in g minor for Clarinet, Violin, Voila, Cello and Piano   
62   String Quartet No. 4 in D    
73   Octet in G major for Clarinet, Horn, Bassoon, Two Violins, Voila, Cello and Piano, Op. 73   
81   String Quartet No. 5 in D    
93.2   String Trio No. 2 in A    
?   String Trio No. 1   

Opera
9   Sakuntala, Op. 9   1884
10   Malawika (und Agnimitra), Op. 10   1886
14   Genesius, Op. 14   1892
30.1   Agamemnon, Op. 30/1   1902
30.2   Das Totenopfer, Op. 30/2   1902
30.3   Die Erinyen, Op. 30/3   1902
43   Musik zu Goethes Faust, Op. 43   
54   Kain und Abel, Op. 54   1914
57   Dame Kobold, Op. 57   1916
64   Die Dorfschule, Op. 64   1920
65   Der Sturm, Op. 65   
66   Meister Andrea, Op. 66   1920
72   Der Apostat, Op. 72   
94   Sakuntala, Op. 94   
   Terra, ein Symbol   

Orchestral
6   Serenade in F Major for String Orchestra   1882
20   König Lear   1895
21   Das Gefilde der Seligen   1897
23   Symphony No. 1 in g minor   1898
29   Symphony No. 2 in Eb   1900
49   Symphony No. 3 in E   1909
52   Violin Concerto in G   1913
53   Lustige Overture for Orchestra   1914
56   Aus ernster Zeit', Ouverture for Orchestra   1914
60   Cello Concerto in a minor   1916
61   Symphony No. 4 in F    1916
71   Symphony No. 5 in c minor   1926
74   Symphony No. 6 'La Tragica' in b minor   1928
78   La Burla, 6 pieces for orchestra   1928
79   An die Schweiz, Variations for Orchestra   1930
80   Frühling   
83   Sinfonietta for violin, viola, cello and small orchestra   1935
87   Symphony No. 7 in C    1937
91   Bilder aus Japan, 5 pieces for orchestra   1938
   Der Sturm, Overture and Suite for Orchestra   1918

Piano
1   Skizzen, Op. 1
2   Tonbilder zu Adalbert Stifters Studien, Op. 2
3   Aus vergangener Zeit, Op. 3
4   Lose Blätter, Op. 4
5   Phantasiebilder, Op. 5
58   Herbstblätter, Op. 58

Vocal
7   Lieder für Singstimme und Klavier, Op. 7
8   Lieder für Singstimme und Klavier, Op. 8
11   Harold, 9 songs
12   Die Wallfahrt nach Kevelaer, Op. 12
13   Lieder für Singstimme und Klavier, Op. 13
15   8 Lieder für Singstimme und Klavier, Op. 15
16   8 Lieder für Singstimme und Klavier, Op. 16
17   3 Lieder für Singstimme und Klavier, Op. 17
18   Severa, Op. 18
19   Hilaria, Op. 19
22   12 Gedichte für Sopran / Tenor und Klavier, Op. 22
25   6 Lieder für Sopran / Tenor und Klavier, Op. 25
27   3 Gedichte aus Gottfried Kellers Jugendzeit, Op. 27
28   12 Lieder für Sopran / Tenor und Klavier, Op. 28
31   4 Lieder für Sopran / Tenor und Klavier, Op. 31
32   6 Märchenlieder für Sopran / Tenor und Klavier, Op. 32
35   Unruhe der Nacht, Op. 35
36   Lieder und Gesänge für Singstimme und Orchester, Op. 36
37   2 Balladen von Carl Spitteler, Op. 37
38   Traumnacht und Sturmhymnus, Op. 38
39   Aus fernen Welten, Op. 39
41   Fruhlings- und Liebeslieder, 12 songs
44   3 Lieder für Singstimme und Klavier, Op. 44
45   Lieder für Singstimme und Klavier, Op. 45
46   5 Lieder für Singstimme und Klavier, Op. 46
47   4 Lieder für Singstimme und Klavier, Op. 47
48   6 Lieder für Singstimme und Klavier, Op. 48
51   Abendlieder, Op. 51
55   4 Lieder für Singstimme und Klavier, Op. 55
59   Daheim, Op. 59
63   Blüten aus dem Osten, Op. 63
67   Freiheitsgesang, Op. 67
68   Lieder für Singstimme und Klavier, Op. 68
69   Auferstehung, Op. 69
70   Lieder für Singstimme und Klavier, Op. 70
75   Lieder für Singstimme und Klavier, Op. 75
76   Lieder für Singstimme und Klavier, Op. 76
77   An den Schmerz, Op. 77
82   Der Weg, Op. 82
86.1   Immer, Op. 86/1
86.2   Ave-Maria-Läuten, Op. 86/2
86.3   Verheißung, Op. 86/3
90   Rom, Op. 90
   Lied des Hunold Singuf

[Alan Howe]

I must disagree - but gently. By derivative I meant that it is often easier to spot the influences in Weingartner than his own voice. I'm thinking, for example, of the first three symphonies - even the hugely enjoyable No.3 which is as Straussian as No.2 is a (fascinating) mélange of Brahms and Bruckner. I'm a genuine paid-up member of the Weingartner fan-club (and I have all the cpo releases in various genres), but it simply won't do to put him on a par with Mahler (whom I discovered 40 plus years ago well before he was in vogue to the extent that he is today).
Each to his own, of course. But objectivity, objectivity (not an impossible task - and essential if what we claim here is to retain credibility).

[Balapoel]

Your point is understood completely, Alan. To clarify, I don't think Weingartner at the first rank of composers (though at the first rank of conductor-composers I have heard). My perspective hinges more on my receptance to Mahler's typical approach (again, personal opinion). There are times when I feel in the mood for Mahler (and I have all of his works on CD), but they are rare, and quickly sated.

That I am a big chamber music fan can be considered part of my assessment as well. It is a test of a composer - can they craft profound, memorable music without the aid of orchestral color? This test, to my mind, separates superficiality from substance. With respect to derivativeness, I suspect 'originality' (often defined with regards to outward formal properties) is overrated. To take an extreme example, John Cage was more original than most composers we view here - but it doesn't make his 'music' more palatable to me. Or Helikopter-Streichquartett by Stockhausen... On the other hand, Schubert, arguably made fewer contributions to form, yet he is in my mind, one of the most original composers.

In any event, we have strayed from Weingartner - my last word will be that I, like many reviewers, have found his music to be quite beautiful.

[Alan Howe]

Originality for originality's sake is mere self-indulgent nonsense - Emperor's new clothes maskerading as serious art. So I too reject Cage and Stockhausen for the same reason. However, I do think that the greatest composers, while staying connected to The Tradition, transcend it by creating a sound-world of their own. Thus, for all his faults, Mahler qualifies whereas Weingartner doesn't; and in reality not many unsungs do. Among those I would name are: Rufinatscha, Raff, Draeseke, Berwald, Berger, Sgambati. There are, no doubt, others. But Weingartner isn't one of them. However, I do love his music! And we all the richer for having heard it.

[FBerwald]

I completely agree. Weingartner is best of the Conductor/Composer group who are mainly known as conductors now. His orchestration itself is something else. Has anyone listened to his orchestration of Weber's Invitation to the dance. Intelligent and economical as opposed to Reger's distorted ramblings [on any of his versions of other composers'!] Here Weingartner has more in common with Raff, in that hes stays true to the composers spirit. I would be very interested to listen to his orchestration of Beethoven's Hammerclavier Sonata.

[Balapoel]

I would be very interested to listen to his orchestration of Beethoven's Hammerclavier Sonata.

Indeed - it is imaginatively and effectively orchestrated:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ-QP1WwlNw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPOrzrpP3mY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-u2n1wWa9k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyVMvQb8PM4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cp_hZlY1Ugg

[Mark Thomas]

What a fascinating listen. Thanks, Belapoel. Weingartner catches the bleak solemnity of much of the slow movement wonderfully well and the drama of the outer movements is complemented by imaginative, but still appropriate, shifts of texture and colour. At first hearing my only misgivings are with Weingartner's interpretation as conductor of this performance (I assume that it's his 1930 recording?): the scherzo is too hard pressed and there is no grand climactic finish in the finale - it just seems to stop. Overall, though, it's a hugely impressive testament to his skill and sensitivity as an orchestrator.

[eschiss1]

There does seem to be at least one other recording of it- 1954, on Nixa, conducted by Kurt Graunke- but I don't know if that's ever made it to CD...