Ralph Vaughan Williams - world famous in the UK?

[alberto]

Jn my city, Torino, albeit in 50 years of concerts I heard in actuasl concerts
Symphony n.2
Symphony n.4
Symphony n.5
The lark ascending
Tallis Fantasia (two or three times)
Oboe Concerto
Tuba Concerto
Fantasia on Greensleeves
On Wenlock Edge (chamber version)
Songs of Travel
The above were performed by "domestic" forces (some with British conductors)
Symphony n.4 was performed by Colin Davis and the LSO

[Alan Howe]

Can you remember any of the other conductors, alberto?

[alberto]

Jeffrey Tate conducted the Fifth Symphony, Alun Francis the Second Symphony, Frank Shipway the Tallis Fantasia, the Lark ascending and the Oboe Concerto, the German Wifried Boettcher another performance of the Tallis Fantasia.

[Alan Howe]

So Boettcher was the only continental European! (Tate and Shipway were English; Francis is Welsh.)

[eschiss1]

and one notes, too, that there are a few works by VW which have traveled more broadly (though it's hard to find conductors who provably have had -no- connection with England or with teachers who've had a connection with England etc. ) - the Tallis Fantasia, as noted and to briefly misname it, is in the repertoire of many more conductors than many others of his works, as are a few others. (BTW when -did- Rozhdestvensky record his Melodiya cycle of the symphonies, though this is a historical and not recent question- but tends to militate against too simple an explanation of the whys and wherefores... (never mind- 1988-1989, and yes, following his tenure at the BBC SO 1979-81, as noted in the Musicweb review. So as with the Melodiya Walter Piston 6, there's an explanation for it...))

I wonder though- Mario Venzago conducted the 4th with the Gothenburg symphony in 2006 (not a commercial recording; clicka har), 4 years before he took his first post with a British orchestra (2010). Well, so goes.

[britishcomposer]

Some of you will have the Capriccio CD of rare RVW conducted by the German Karl-Heinz Steffens.
The German Amazon site has an interview with him. (English subtitles included.)
https://www.amazon.de/Poisoned-Kiss-Bucolic-Suite-Country/dp/B072MPK7MM/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=vaughan+steffens&qid=1613243958&sr=8-1

My first encounter with RVW Symphony No. 4 was via a radio broadcast. I do not remember the orchestra but the conductor was Peter Jona Korn. Being jewish he emigrated to the UK in 1933 and became a pupil of Edmund Rubbra. According to Korn's German wikipedia entry Rubbra introduced him to the music of RVW who became very important to him. I know several of Korn's compositions but couldn't detect any obvious influence. Well, I admit this is another English connection but at least Korn conducted RVW in Germany with a German orchestra at a time when this was quite a novelty.

[Alan Howe]

That's an interesting CD - and it's good to add Steffens to the (short) list of continental European conductors of VW.

Here's a review of the recording:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2018/Apr/VW_orchestral_C5314.htm

[eschiss1]

Briefly back to the Gothenburg symphony with apologies, they maintain an archive of what they've performed by composer (which we may wish to consult for other purposes as we have the Vienna Symphony archive etc.), and
here is a list of the works by RVW they've performed with some links to pages that I assume contain more detailed information about who as well as when.  (Does anyone know if Jerker Johansson (b.1967) who conducted the 7th symphony - 9 times? - oh I see, 9 times ending in 2008 has any British connections?) The 5th symphony I see has been conducted by N Jarvi twice in 1995, then by Bartosch (b.1965 in Malmö) in 2000, -then - by Michael Collins in 2015. The list of exceptions is still small, but there are still some. (Also, the popular viola suite was most recently performed with the orchestra in 2014 conducted by Halldis Rønning, who seems to have an interesting repertoire judging from her homepage.

Of course, since she worked with Andrew Litton in 2011... however, I'd like to bring this fact to your attention, which I am reminded of by Ms Rønning's biography and which I should really make a separate comment to this , rather than an edit. Or even a new post. At least. Unlike a half-century or seventy years ago, say, it is now -typical-, expected, usual, for the most promising new conductors to travel, if not quite worldwide, at least all over Europe, Japan, North America, with many major orchestras, during their training/internship. The upshot: it is more likely that you will find a conductor who has... let me rephrase.)

The likelihood that you will find a young conductor now'days who has NOT studied with, become a friend of, etc. etc. for a substantial period of time, a major British conductor, orchestra, ... long enough to also run into some RVW, is much less than the opposite, precisely for that reason. (Which makes the dearth of conductors who then go on and play his music on their own something that takes some explaining. Slatkin, too, would take not just RVW but other composers and either perform them with orchestras nearer their places of birth (Ropartz 5 with a French orchestra - for broadcast not recording anyway- eg) but unfortunately not otherwise, just as it seems he recorded the symphonies with the Philharmonia but only the Fantasia with the St Louis orchestra. USoWeiter...) But it also means that one's explanation - oh, this conductor did so because they studied with this British conductor - isn't, because practically all of them -have- now.

[Alan Howe]

The exceptions that prove the rule, I think.

[eschiss1]

See further edit which I probably should have separated into a comment.

[Alan Howe]

Well, there are certainly continental European conductors who work/have worked exclusively in Europe and who have not programmed Vaughan Williams - at least not to the point of recording his music, especially his most important body of work, namely his nine symphonies, Job, etc. As has been suggested elsewhere in this thread, this may be becuse VW doesn't fit easily into the European symphonic tradition.

On the other hand, it may simply be that non-continental European conductors have so cornered the recording market that there is no financial incentive to get them to record VW. Perhaps there are scores of performances of his most important music (i.e. not merely the Tallis Fantasia or Lark Ascending) taking place of which we are unaware. But I'm not convinced there are...

[semloh]

A few years ago I mentioned on UC that back in 1990, I discovered to my utter astonishment and dismay that my Australian university colleagues had never heard of RVW. However, in recent years, listeners to the national classical music station have voted, in various polls, Lark Ascending as their all-time favourite piece of music, their most 'uplifting' piece of music, and one of their favourite violin works. By contrast, in a poll of favourite symphonies, RVW's best was his 5th ranked 44th. The most familiar works by RVW, such as excerpts from Wasps and Sea Songs, do get aired on the radio, but the symphonies rarely appear in concerts.

I think one reason for this may be that the major Australian orchestras have generally had chief conductors from the European tradition (a recent exception being Andrew Davis at the MelbourneSO). Just my impression - no hard data!

[ewk]

What I can tell for Germany is mostly the same: RVW feels more or less absent from concert programmes (as is, to be honest, Elgar apart from his Cello and sometimes Violin concerto, and an occasional Dream of Gerontius).

However, there is Andrew Manze in Hannover since 2014 and he is doing some RVW there – of course a Brit again. And a google search of "Vaughan Williams Sinfoniekonzert" reveils several outings of Symphonies 2 and 5 at German opera houses during the past years – most of which without a British conductor.

The "Sea Symphony" seems to be attractive for amateur/semi professional choirs because it is one of the few symphonies extant employing the choir throughout most of the piece, so it got some performances (not only) of this kind as well.

The performance in Freiburg in June 2015 that I mentioned was by the ORSOphilharmonic, under the baton of the German conductor Wolfgang Roese. More about him can be found on the ORSO website (in German only). There's also this brief extract from A Sea Symphony on Youtube.

Funny you mention this performance, as I played in this concert. Quite an experience to play this work in concert!

Best wishes! ewk

[Mark Thomas]

All of which bears out my initial impression and Alan's proposition. Maybe the thread should have been: "Ralph Vaughan Williams - world famous amongst Britons"?

[Alan Howe]

I think that's right. A world-class composer, barely performed/recorded outside the UK and the US unless it's by UK-connected conductors. In addition: a world-class composer whose major compositions, aside from The Lark Ascending, Tallis Fantasia, and a few other shorter, 'popular' pieces, are barely known at all. In short: a scandal. Look at the attention that, say, Shostakovich gets by comparison...