Ralph Vaughan Williams - world famous in the UK?

[matesic]

A small insight that occurred to me yesterday watching the TV programme Fake or Fortune - isn't RVW our musical Constable? There's something that appeals particularly to Brits about Constable's rural scenes, perhaps not Constable's intention but invoking a sense of nostalgia which is also a powerful emotion in music.  Often the peace is disturbed by a degree of turbulence, as is RVW's music, but never vanquished. I wonder if RVW ever had Constable in mind when he wrote? And whether Constable is as revered on the continent as he is here?

[matesic]

I'd actually be quite interested to know if anyone else thinks this way, or not!

[Mark Thomas]

FWIW, I think there's probably more than a grain of truth in it. Some "national schools" of music, like Russian or Czech, export very well indeed, probably because of their rhythmic vivacity and generally colourful orchestration. They were, at least originally, exotic. What used to be disdainfully called "cowpat" music, the British style of the first quarter of the 20th century, probably has much less attraction elsewhere, which doesn't share a nostalgic attraction to our imagined rural idyll. I know that there's much more to RVW than that, but reputation often has little to do with the facts.

[Wheesht]

Just to follow up from my previous post about Ignatz Waghalter conducting the Philharmonisches Orchester Berlin on 1 February 1923 in a programme of Berlioz, Debussy and RVW: In an overview of first performances in its first March number of 1923 the Neue Musikzeitung lists A London Symphony as a German premiere in Berlin, but neither conductor nor orchestra are named. 

[Alan Howe]

I actually think a lot of VW is quite difficult and not at all of the cowpat school! In fact some of his music is pretty dissonant and a questionable fit for discussion here, e.g. Job, the Piano Concerto, Symphonies 4, 6, 8, 9, etc. On the other hand much of his music is a perfect fit for UC. So VW's actually quite a tricky composer to pin down - as with all geniuses. So, for example, it's easy to like the VW of the Tallis Fantasia, Lark Ascending, etc., but to embrace his oeuvre fully takes much more work. I suspect that this is a large part of the problem.

[Mark Thomas]

I agree, and wasn't saying that RVW was of the cowpat school at all, just that perhaps that's part of his reputation abroad.

[tappell]

I agree with Alan that some of Vaughan Williams music is beautiful like the 5th Symphony, particularly the slow movement, but much else unlistenable to my ears. That is also true of Malcolm Williamson who could write the exquisite Lento for Strings, closing passages of his Man in Havana suite, Santiago de Espada overture dedicated to Adrian Boult. In his case he seems to have been pushed off track by his peers who heavily criticised him for writing accessible music. Thus the vast majority of his output falls into modern techniques for their own sake, rather than what was in his heart.

Also Richard Arnell with his 4th & 5th Symphony I find very listenable but not the remainder of his output.

Sorry if I have strayed outside the parameters of the forum, but it was just to make a point.

[Alan Howe]

I agree, and wasn't saying that RVW was of the cowpat school at all, just that perhaps that's part of his reputation abroad.

That's very likely true. Of course, as you suggest, it's an erroneous reputation. He was a very great composer - probably our finest ever - and it takes time and effort to come to grips with his music in toto.

[matesic]

So more Paul Nash than Constable? I can get that when I think of the fourth symphony and the piano concerto. Of course any analogy is imperfect, but RVW certainly was a man of parts

[Alan Howe]

Nash and Constable, I'd say.

[Gareth Vaughan]

I have known and loved the music of RVW since my teens - and I asked for Michael Kennedy's "The Works of Ralph Vaughan Williams" when I won an essay prize at school (a work which hitherto I had only been able to borrow from the local library - and that had to be ordered specially!). So please excuse me if I say that to my ears none of his music sounds remotely "difficult" - it is all firmly tonal. The 'grinding dissonances' which open the 4th are, in the composer's own words "cribbed from the finale of Beethoven's ninth." If anything, the opening chord of the finale of the latter is even more dissonant than VW's 4th (though it is true that the dissonances go on for longer in VW's work - but we are not talking 2nd Viennese school!!!).

[Alan Howe]

Well, it's taken me a long time to appreciate, say, VW's PC - hardly an easy work, surely. All ears react differently, of course, but I still find that there is a pretty wide gulf in approachability between, for example, his 4th and 5th Symphonies. But maybe it's simply taken me longer to encompass the length and breadth, height and depth of his music. My fault, no doubt.

Just one thing, though: 'tonal' doesn't necessarily mean 'not difficult'. Robert Simpson's symphonies are resolutely tonal, but are pretty tough nuts to crack...

[Gareth Vaughan]

'tonal' doesn't necessarily mean 'not difficult'. Robert Simpson's symphonies are resolutely tonal, but are pretty tough nuts to crack...

Agreed, Alan.

[semloh]

Mark and Alan made my point far more lucidly! There are parts of RVW that seduce the ear with ease, and become favourites, but others - and I think many of his major works - are actually quite difficult to appreciate and which, as noted, fall outside the remit of UC.

Nationalism in music is a vast topic, and we have briefly touched upon it in the past. Could those 'cowpats' be located in French or Scandinavian fields, I wonder, are they really characteristically English! 

[Gareth Vaughan]

I'm sorry but I disagree. None of VW's music is more chromatic than Korngold, most of it less so.