Just in case I think the argument is won...

[Mark Thomas]

Here's a review by James Leonard of the Tudor CD of Raff's Sixth and Hungarian Suite:

"Imagine a low-voltage Liszt or a slow-witted Mendelssohn, imagine a thick-waisted Brahms, or a heavy-handed Bruch and you have some idea what to expect from Joseph Joachim Raff. As this disc of Raff's Symphony No. 6 in D minor and Suite No. 2 "In the Hungarian Style" demonstrates yet again, Raff had too few good ideas to sustain a long work and too much facility to stop before he'd gone too far, not enough style to have his own identity, and not enough taste to know that scoring a trivial tune for trumpets, drums, and cymbals will not make it seem any less tawdry. Bearing the euphonic movement titles "Gelebt, Gestrebt, Gelitten, Gestritten, Gestorben, Unworben" -- (Lived, strove, suffered, fought, died, recognized) -- Raff's D minor Symphony is anticipatorily autobiographical -- he would in fact live another nine years after the work's completion -- but unfortunately it is also unendingly pompous and bombastic. Stuffed with ethnic elements -- a Hungarian march (Honvéd), a Hungarian shepherd's song (Puszta), and a Hungarian dance (Csárdás) -- the F major Suite is no more Hungarian than goulash made with hot dogs and ketchup and less appetizing. Hans Stadlmair is, as always in his Raff recordings, a conductor dedicated to the music but its unyielding banality defeats his best efforts. The Bamberger Symphoniker is, as always in its Raff recordings, a little bit more than professional, but also a little bit less than polished ensemble. Tudor's sound is, as always in its Raff recordings, big and boomy. Listeners who already know every other piece of nineteenth century Central European orchestral music may want to check out this disc for comparison's sake. Listeners who don't already know all of Beethoven's, Schubert's, Mendelssohn's, Schumann's, and Brahms' orchestral music may want to go there first."

There are battles still to be fought, clearly. Happy Christmas!

[thalbergmad]

Have you got his address?.

I wish to pay him a visit.

Thal

[Pengelli]

Where is the review,Mark. I looked up James Leonard,and all I could find was an American review,by a 'James Leonard', of an air gun for shooting 'them critters' (rabbits)!  I haven't heard Raff's 6th, yet, but if it works a critic up that much,it must have something going for it!

[Mark Thomas]

The review is at AllMusic. It always fascinates me that Raff can provoke such strong negative emotions. I wouldn't pretend that the Sixth is Raff's best symphony but this review is so damning as to be risible. Heck, he even gives the Bambergers a sly kicking. I'm surprised that he didn't object to the colour of the booklet cover.

[Alan Howe]

Well, the booklet cover is awful. Nevertheless, this is just plain prejudice disguised as musical journalism. All we need to do, apparently, is to listen to the established masters and then rest assured that there is nothing left to discover. But says who? Mr Leonard? How much time has he spent listening to Raff, do you think? So the struggle goes on and the argument will be re-joined in the New Year...

[sdtom]

It is better to say some music I just don't understand
Tom

[petershott@btinternet.com]

In an attempt to keep us free from spam, Mark initiated the sensible procedure whereby postings from potential members are vetted by moderators.

So had he sent in the following would Mr Shaw ever have made it to full membership?

"The symphony at the Brinsmead concert, which was conducted by M. Ganz, was Raff's in E major, called Lenore. Lenore, the heroine of Burger's ballad, was so disappointed when the troops returned from the war without her lover, that she flew in the face of Providence, and used language that went beyond the licence even of a broken heart. That night she heard a tap at the door, ran down and found her Wilhelm there in his war panoply, with his horse. He will not come in; he will not take anything, she cannot guess why, because she does not see the little fountain of blood that spurts from a hole in his left breast, as portrayed in Retsch's outlines. Insisting on an immediate elopement, he places her behind him on the horse, whose hoofs rattle on the bridge as they dash off on a demoniac ride back to the cemetery, in which poor Wilhelm is now permanently established. It is a most awful business, and Lenore dies of it, but she is forgiven her sin at last.

Nothing suits your modern orchestral composer so well as the weird — the diabolical — the infernal. It is very exciting, very easy, and justifies any extravagance. The best part of Raff's symphony is, however, the natural part. The supernatural ride is far inferior to that in Berlioz's Damnation of Faust. The first movement, which depicts the happiness of Lenore and Wilhelm before he goes to the war, is bright, impetuous, and carried along with breadth and freedom. The slow movement consists of several pretty, though vulgar melodies, and contains some harmonic beauties of an audaciously Raffish description. The third movement is the long march past of the returning troops, interrupted for a few moments by the agitation of the stricken Lenore, but presently resumed and continued in its unvarying tramping rhythm until it dies away in the distance. The last movement is the phantom ride. It is poor and second-hand, and contains a passage which was composed by Wagner for The Flying Dutchman, just as the second subject of the first movement was composed by Auber for The Crown Diamonds. Raff's compositions are extraordinarily numerous, and in some points extraordinarily ingenious; but he seems to have used the first ideas that came to him, without any scruple as to their quality. Sometimes he was fortunate in his ideas; sometimes he was not. He was never deep, and he was often too shallow and careless to be even superficially refined.  If his powers of conception had been as remarkable as his powers of execution he would have been a great composer. As it was, his best is no better than Schubert's "middling."

How's that for crassness?!!!! (It comes from an unsigned note by Shaw in The Dramatic Review 12 December 1885).

Maybe we shouldn't get too hot under the collar about folk like Leonard. He clearly preferred the activity of popping off at rabbits, and I hope he was no more competent at that than in his attempts to write music criticism. Always easy to find idiots who seek to score points by cheap, tawdry jibes and are devoid of both ear and mind.

May you all enjoy a good tune in the Great Shutdown.

Warm glad tidings,

Peter

[JimL]

I am rather interested in the Wagner and Auber references in GBS.' critique.  I'm not a big fan of Dutchman and I've never heard The Crown Jewels.  Sounds like Shaw is accusing JJR of musical plagiarism - literal quotes.  How accurate is he in this regard?  Also, which part of the finale of Lenore rips off Fliegender Höllander?  I also thought that the march movement depicted the arrival of the army before Wilhelm left, the central episode was the lovers' farewell, and the reprise of the march was the departure of Wilhelm to the front.

[chill319]

Leonard's sniping review put me also in mind of the 30-something Shaw -- not necessarily to Leonard's advantage. If one compares Leonard's list of 19th-century musical greats with anyone's remotely informed list of 19th-century literary greats, the extent to which tyranny of received opinion holds Leonard's list in a stranglehold becomes evident.

That the diversity of genius expressed during the century between the works of, say, a Goethe or Austin and those of, say, a Rolland or Musil -- that such diversity should be an enrichment for poetry and prose but a deficit for music strains credulity.

[Mark Thomas]

Thanks for the Shaw review, Peter, which I didn't know and have squirrelled away in my archive. I always enjoy Shaw's writing (if not his interminable plays) and have three volumes of his music criticism, from which this piece is, surprisingly, absent. I don't think one should read it for what he says about music (he was a dreadful Wagner snob), but more for the way that he says it.

Jim, you are right about what the third movement of Lenore depicts, that's made explicit in the programme. As to the Flying Dutchman and The Crown Diamonds quotes I simply have no idea, not knowing either piece well enough...

Happy Christmas, one and all!

[Steve B]

Happy Christmas, all unknown composer afficianadoes!:)Steve.Happy Listening:)

[petershott@btinternet.com]

Hello Mark - if you want to embellish the squirrelling away with a reference I found the Shaw quotation in: 'Shaw's Music: The Complete Musical Criticism of Bernard Shaw', ed. Dan L Laurence, 2nd rev'd ed. 1989 Vol I pp. 422-423. (ISBN 0-370-30333-4). Always a source of delight and exasperation.

Jim of course is quite right about the 3rd movement of Raff. As for the references to Auber and Wagner, well, I suspect Shaw is doing something I learnt not to do in my 1st year as an undergraduate, namely, name-drop and get it wrong! I didn't need an excuse for listening to Raff again, but having done so carefully, I've got no idea what Shaw was blathering on about!

Happy Christmas,

Peter

[chill319]

Douglas Fawcett once said something about philosophy that I believe pertains equally to critical evaluations of unsung music:
"On earth we get caught up in our own concepts, our dogma, and our own words.....  We attach more importance than we should to individual names.... The names of the great initiators and exemplars have almost ceased to be the names of the men who lived. They have become symbols. The focus of the great spreading-out of ideas all need to be respected."

[giles.enders]

It is little use becoming upset by one review.  One could look at other reviews this person has done but who cares.  The fact is that there have been several recordings of this symphony, which is good.  You Raff fans now have eleven years to his bicentenary and in that time have the opportunity to lobby, cajole, persuade those that can to record all his music or at the very least least have concerts of some of the rarer pieces.  How about a CD of highlights from his operas?  Is there a list of his music which has not been recorded? When were the piano trios last given live performances?

[eschiss1]

Trio no.2 - April 6 2011 (see http://www.raff.org/news/news.htm). Not last, admittedly, but future.

apparently, too, trio no.3 was performed at the Central Vermont Chamber Music Festival in August 2007. (Central Vermont Chamber Music Festival news article)