Brahms/Holloway Symphony in F minor Op.34b

[eschiss1]

I've listened to the Schumann and the first movement on the broadcast, which expires tomorrow. (Hopefully will be able to stream it at some point, if only for the Schumann, which is a good orchestration of a fine work.) The orchestration of the Brahms, so far (I'll try to catch the rest after I rest...) reminds me vaguely of the most recent time I listened to the Dessau orchestration of the Mozart, but I'm afraid I can't mean that as a compliment. (The issue isn't "would Brahms have done it -exactly- this way", it's "does the orchestration seem to suit the melodic ideas and respond to them"*- which Brahms, a very fine orchestrator, would have done- and so far the answer is no.)

*My idea of what this means is flexible enough to include the Bach/Webern Ricercar, again, but this seems to go in the opposite direction of "not responding".

[John Boyer]

The issue isn't "would Brahms have done it -exactly- this way", it's "does the orchestration seem to suit the melodic ideas and respond to them"*- which Brahms, a very fine orchestrator, would have done- and so far the answer is no.

From what I have heard, this is the same complaint I would have made. Unlike you, however, I would not exempt the Variations from the same charge. The opening theme, it seems to me, cries out to be set for the winds, as Brahms did in his Haydn Variations. Holloway's use of the strings seems to be missing the point.

[John Boyer]

Unlike you, however, I would not exempt the Variations from the same charge.

Ah, but now I see you were not referring to Holloway's orchestration of Brahms's Schumann Variations, which appears on the new Toccata disc, but his orchestration of Schumann's Pedal Piano Studies, which appears on the BBC concert. 

[eschiss1]

From the description of the BBC broadcast, I think they're both from CDs rather than studio broadcasts, but I may be mistaken... has the pedal-piano studies orchestration been issued on disc? (yes, I see, if I count the disc the Brahms is on which won't be out until 5/5- which explains a bit. But yes, they are on the same disc.)

[John Boyer]

But yes, they are on the same disc.)

By Jove, you're right!  The Toccata disc has all three works.

[eschiss1]

I wonder if Schumann's fugues on b-a-c-h, op.60 (which the outer movements of the 2nd symphony put me in mind of just because of their title) have been well-orchestrated

[eschiss1]

I find myself thinking that op.34(/bis), despite its genesis as a string quintet, might be better as a piano concerto than a symphony, perhaps in the manner of op.83 (with the opening for piano and orchestra, then an inserted orchestral tutti, then the concerto "proper" continuing.)

[Alan Howe]

The 'Symphony', especially the opening movement, is certainly a thought-provoking arangement and gives us some idea of what an early symphonic attempt by Brahms might have sounded like in the context of works by Bargiel, Dietrich, Volkmann, Grimm, etc.

For me the most obvious Brahmsian 'footprints' are the harmonic daring and rhythmic complexity.

[Alan Howe]

...however! As the work went on I became increasingly annoyed at the inappropriately heavy use of the brass which seemed to me completely unnecessary. All in all, it comes across to me as a clever arrangement, but not one I'd want to hear very often. Too often I felt aurally assaulted, I'm afraid - and not in a good way.

I can't help thinking that time and effort would have been better spent tackling one of the as yet unrecorded symphonies by Brahms' contemporaries rather than this sophisticated fake. Some of these are truly outstanding examples of the art.

[eschiss1]

There was a composer (who's been mentioned in this thread!) who wrote that he believed that the best orchestration was that which (iirc-haven't read this in a bit) added only what already seemed called for, grew out of , what was already in the music. (Not the same as certain other points of view expressed- one might need more modern instruments to do this right, but the result would sound of one piece as a new piece and presumably would still sound right...)

[terry martyn]

I found the opening movement promising, but I began to dislike the piece more and more as it went on. Topheavy in brass, and I couldn't agree more with Alan's latest post. I wish I had dared to utter the phrase "sophisticated fake". Sums it up for me!

[Alan Howe]

Sometimes you just have to say what you really think (as long as it's not rude or offensive). I was hoping for something as sensitive as Elgar/Payne Symphony 3, but this isn't it.

Much better than fake Brahms would have been, say, Bernhard Scholz's 2nd Symphony, i.e. a really good work in the Brahmsian tradition...
https://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,8783.msg90734.html#msg90734
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcU4nTXFZOQ
https://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.2%2C_Op.80_(Scholz%2C_Bernhard)

Toccata did a great job with Bargiel's Symphony, so...