The Symphony in Germany/Austria 1827-50

[Hofrat]

It was not easy to be a symphonic composer in the second quarter of the 19th century in Germany or Austria.  The critics had a field day with them:  either their works imitated Beethoven too closely or they were too far from Beethoven.

[John H White]

I don't think there could have been a shortage of symphonists in Germany and Austria  in 1835 when the symphony competition run by the Vienna Music Friends attracted 56 entries, Franz Lachner and Otto Nicholai coming 1st and 2nd.

[FBerwald]

Lets not forget the 3 symphonies of Max Bruch.

[Alan Howe]

Indeed. But Bruch's symphonies were written much later (1868 - 1882).

[christopherfifield]

Here's a question which has arisen in my PhD thesis on the half (19th) century of the German symphonic crisis, and to which I'd appreciate an answer, if only confirmation that I am correct in thinking it might be Kalliwoda (and I appreciate that he was born in Prague, but Bohemian and German-speaking as well as working there all his life):

Kalliwoda 3 (1830) and 4 (1835) has solos for violin (No.3) and cello (the whole slow movement Romanze in the 4th). After Haydn 7 and 45, who else gave solos to string instruments before Kalliwoda, followed of course by Schumann 4 (1841) violin, Spohr 8 (1847) violin, Schnyder von Wartensee 3 (1848) double bass?

Any ideas?

I am happy to report that the Lambeth Orchestra committee approved my programme for 2009-2010, so that means I will conduct Lachner's 8th on 13th February 2010 at All Saints, Dulwich SE21. Check out the website if you want the full year's programme www.lambeth-orchestra.org.uk

[Hofrat]

Joachim Eggert (1779-1813) wrote a wonderful violin solo in the trio of the third movement of his C-minor symphony.   

[christopherfifield]

Anyone after Beethoven, say post-1830?

[JimL]

You're still missing a lot of Haydn.  Besides the 7th and 45th Symphonies, there's the 55th (solo cello in the trio of the minuet), 88th (cello in the slow movement), 98th (violin in the finale) and I believe there are a few more that I can't even remember.  I'm hard pressed to find a solo string instrument in any symphonies other than the ones you mentioned from the post-Beethoven/pre-Schumann period.  Then, again, there aren't that many I've heard, either.

[John H White]

I suppose one would expect a violinist like Kalliwoda to introduce the violin as a solo instrument in a symphony. I'm rather surprised that Spohr didn't do likewise.
Gade, of course, employed a piano in his 5th symphony, but that dates from 1852, just outside the period under consideration.

[christopherfifield]

I'd be interested to know if any of you have a cd of Burgmuller No.2 (on Koch or MDG), and can listen to the 2nd movement, which is uncannily like the 2nd movement of Schubert 9. It has a very similar prominent oboe solo introduced by the metronomic eighth notes. But surely Burgmuller, who died in 1836, could not have known Schubert 9 as Schumann only discovered it at Vienna in 1839. Burgmuller didn't travel south to Vienna, but operated in Dusseldorf and died nearby in Aachen. Perhaps he knew Franz Lachner, a friend of Schubert, whose 5th symphony is structurally at least as grandiose if not as Great as Schubert's, and one wonders if he had an early sighting of No.9 before Schubert's death in 1828.

Back to Burgmuller 2 - the first movement also sounds like Beethoven 7's finale but that is perfectly understandable - though cleverly Beethoven's duple rhythm becomes triple with Burgmuller, but he distorts it cleverly just like his exact contemporary Schumann, who also scored the Trio of this incomplete work, does so often in his music (followed in turn by his 'protege' Brahms).

[Alan Howe]

The similarity between the slow movements of Schubert 9 and Burgmüller 2 is palpable (it was the first thing I thought when I heard the latter) - but I too am at a loss to know how this could have been, historically speaking...

[Peter1953]

I have just listened to Burgmüller's 2nd again. Both slow movements show definitely a remarkable similarity. However, I can hardly believe that Schumann, who instrumented the sketches of the 3rd movement in 1850, also revised the andante, with the score of Schubert's "Great C major" within arm's reach. That would be very bizarre, the more because the last movement sounds wholly Schumann, both in melody and instrumentation. That means that Burgmüller's 2nd symphony is a combination of Burgmüller himself (1st movement), Schubert (2nd) and Schumann (3rd).
No, this is too incredible. I think the resemblance is nothing but a coincidence. Or did Schubert's goast whispered the idea of the oboe solo, or the whole theme, in Burgmüller's ear, ten years after Schubert completed the score of his 9th?  And, also sinister, not long before Burgmüller passed away? Also far too young. Again a coincidence, I suppose.

Mentioning Schubert, I have always asked myself why he didn't compose a piano concerto. That would have been a grandiose, unequalled masterpiece...

[Alan Howe]

It appears that Burgmüller didn't know Schubert 9 at all - so the similarity appears to be a complete coincidence. Extraordinary!

[JimL]

Mentioning Schubert, I have always asked myself why he didn't compose a piano concerto. That would have been a grandiose, unequalled masterpiece...

I have often asked this question myself.  As near as I can figure, Schubert's technique, while formidable, wasn't quite brilliant enough (in his own opinion) for a florid display piece, which most concertos were at the time.  Plus, while he felt comfortable playing in intimate salon settings among friends, he may not have had the temperament to appear with a full orchestra in a public concert (remember also that most concertos at the time were composed by the performers themselves.  The first piano concerto that comes to mind that was not ever performed by the composer was Beethoven's Emperor).  Of course, again, this is purely conjecture.  A full-scale mature violin concerto from Schubert would have been nice, too.  He knew plenty of violinists.

[christopherfifield]

I shall conduct Burgmuller's Symphony No.2 with my Lambeth Orchestra on Saturday 13 February 2010 at 7.30pm at All Saints Church, West Dulwich, London SE21. It marks his bi-centenary, and I am told by the Burgmuller Society that this will be the British premiere. Does anyone know anything to dispute that?

Do come if you live near enough!

All best

Christopher Fifield