Ferdinand Ries symphonies - new recordings

[eschiss1]

The Tapiola Sinfonietta has been posting to YouTube recordings of some of the 8 symphonies by Beethoven's (piano) pupil Ferdinand Ries (1784-1838), whose complete symphonies have been recorded once, on cpo.
presto announces that May 3 will see the release of a new intended Ries cycle on Ondine from Janne Nisonen and the above mentioned Tapiola Sinfonietta. (Ondine describes the recording as first in a new cycle.)

[Alan Howe]

From what I can hear of the excerpts at Presto, these will be extremely swift performances - I'm tempted to say possibly too swift...

[eschiss1]

Total durations are almost the same (26:03/26:33 on Ondine, 26:37/25:26 on cpo) with some greater variations in reported durations of individual movements.

Their video of sym.4 is a minute slower than Griffiths, which may include pauses and applauses, haven't checked... edit: the performance starts at 34 seconds in, after applause, yes-the movements are given with internal timings under the video. "Available until 11 March 2025"- so perhaps the new commercial release is in process

[eschiss1]

ah, and their sym 4 ends at 32:09 (5:46 finale, rather briefer than Griffiths' 6:07.)

[Alan Howe]

I'm sure this is good for those who have never picked up the cpo recordings, but the latter are very fine, so I won't be tempted into any duplication here. Still, this is an enterprising project.

[kolaboy]

I'm good with my cpo's.

[Ilja]

I like those too, but I'm glad there are others, which seemingly show a somewhat different approach.

[Alan Howe]

There is a tendency in some recent recordings to adopt tempi which are so fast that articulation suffers. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should...

Example: can the orchestra here really articulate clearly?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR0amzWr0J0
...or is this rather better?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rw6slNXSzNg
I know which I prefer.

[Ilja]

Perhaps it's somewhat of an over-compensation of the "great slowing down" of the twentieth century. Still, although I like a first recording of a piece to keep within conventional limits I have no problems with subsequent ones being more experimental.

[Alan Howe]

I agree. However, in the two examples I provided it's clear that the orchestra in the first example cannot articulate clearly the opening of the second movement. At a slightly less frenetic tempo it works much better.

[Ilja]

I've taken some time to listen to both releases (1&2 and 4&5) over the past days and I have to say that for me, they're a marked improvement over the cpo ones. As we suspected, Nisonen treats these works as very early romantic, whereas Griffiths regards them more as almost Spohrian late classical. This manifests itself in the creation of greater dynamic contrasts and urgency. The overall effect is more energetic, and they feel faster even when they aren't, or not by much (or even slower, as in No. 2). It also helps that the recording is noticeably more transparent and better balanced than the cpo one.

For me Nisonen's recordings turn these symphonies into better works than how I remember them. I'm reminded of how much we needed Spering's version of Kalliwoda's Fifth, or more recently Rasmussen's recording of Bendix' Third, to make an argument for the quality of those works. Of course, tastes will differ but for me these are eye-opening.

[hyperdanny]

I wholeheartedly concur with Ilja..actually these Ondine releases have been a minor revelation to me.
I had one volume of the old cpo edition but, even if it was good, as we are used with maestro Griffiths, it didn't do anything for me to dispel the "Beethoven-lite" stereotype about Ries.
I bought one, listened to it a couple times, didn't feel the need to go further.
The stereotype is sort of true, let's not kid ourselves, but here's the thing: these passionate and stormy Ondine performances, HIP-influenced but in the right way and not too much, make the pieces sound more musically rich  and more interesting than they probably are.
I listened to what was available on Youtube and then I immediately ordered both available cd issues.
BTW , on YT there's a concert video of the same orchestra and conductor playing the 4th, and it can be seen that the Tapiola Sinfonietta is,a pretty "substantial" chamber orchestra, no anemic sound here.

[Hector]

Glad others are finding a greater appreciation of Ries' Symphonies, I was always impressed by Griffiths' performances. However, I am not so interested in the Tapiola perfomances that I have heard on Youtube. I would have preferred experimentation to be with more flexible tempos, greater use of vibrato, and slower Andantes and Larghettos.

[Ilja]

I'd argue that such an approach can be problematic for music from this period. It doesn't really allow for much licence if you want to keep form and structure (and the intention of its creator) intact. I'm not going into vibrato, but confess to being suspicious towards taking great liberties with relative tempos. 

Perhaps it's having to sit through Celibidache performances in my youth, too.