Reinecke Symphony No.2/Overtures

[Maury]

Is Reinecke the closest thing to a 19th C Haydn? Just a thought given his large and steady output of quality music. NB: I am not equating the two in terms of importance.

[Mark Thomas]

I grant you that there's a consistent quality to Reinecke's output but I don't think one can ignore Haydn's importance in making the comparison, to be honest. I don't have deep knowledge of late 18th century music but my understanding is that Haydn was a truly innovative and influential composer (indeed I know one modern-day composer who rates him above Mozart), whereas Reinecke was a very fine craftsman perpetuating, but not developing, an established tradition.

[Mark Thomas]

Whilst on the subject of Reinecke, many thanks to Ilja for his upload of the Aladdin Overture recording, which I haven't come across before. It was composed in 1859, by the way.

[Alan Howe]

Is Reinecke the closest thing to a 19th C Haydn?

No, definitely not. Haydn was a pioneer in many fields (e.g. the symphony, string quartet, etc.) whereas Reinecke was the flagbearer for 19thC Leipzig conservatism in the wake of Mendelssohn and Schumann.

Leaving aside matters of musical style, the only 19thC pioneer of comparable stature to Haydn would have to be Wagner (e.g. the abandonment of the symphony and the development of opera as music drama in its place).

[Mark Thomas]

19thC pioneer of comparable stature to Haydn would have to be Wagner

Or Liszt maybe if comparing notoriety allied to productivity (Liszt wrote a huge amount of music).

[Alan Howe]

Indeed - and the development of the Symphonic Poem as a new orchestral entity entirely suited to romanticism in music. And then there's Berlioz...

[eschiss1]

Liszt was innovative in a number of ways, actually...

[John Boyer]

And then there's Berlioz...

I would strike Berlioz because of his low productivity.  A 19th century Haydn would need to match his productivity/innovation/quality synthesis.  Liszt fails on quality (at least consistent quality).

Perhaps there was no 19th century Haydn?

[Mark Thomas]

You're probably right, John. I take your point about Liszt's inconsistency. A bit of a left field thought: if we allow the lighter end of the spectrum, Johann Strauss II's large output is of a consistently high quality (he was admired by Brahms).

[Alan Howe]

In terms of productivity (i.e. the sheer number of compositions) there's no-one in the 19thC to match Haydn - or J.S.Bach before him, for that matter. Not even Raff!

Of course, Romantic-era compositions, e.g. symphonies, were bigger 'projects' than those from the century before, so they took longer to produce. Then, as the 19thC progressed, the concept of a classic music canon developed, with composers constantly looking over their shoulder in order to measure themselves against the steadily accumulating 'standard repertoire'. Brahms consciously attempted to prove himself a worthy successor to the great Beethoven in cultivating the classical forms; this took time and much effort spent rejecting 'unworthy' works or revising ones that were 'in the pipeline' to an extent that had never happened before. Wagner gave up the attempt early on and struck out instead in the direction of the cosmic-level music drama. All this led to far lower productivity - or did it? Just how much compositional effort went into a Wagner opera, from concept to libretto and finally the music itself? Would a Wagner opera be equivalent to, say, ten Haydn symphonies, for example? And to return to Berlioz, how many Haydn symphonies would equate to the effort required to write, say, 'Les Troyens'?

[Ilja]

I think Alan is making an important point. Not only were romantic works lengthier and "bigger", they also introduced a far greater degree of formal creativity, which increased the variables involved in composition. Around 1850 there was still a fairly strict concept of what constituted a symphony, but half a century later that had decomposed to a large degree, and by the 1920s we see six-minute symphonies that have abandoned sonata form altogether. The larger the number of creative axes (axises?), the more time putting together a work or art will require. In that sense, you can't really compare Mahler's symphonies (to give a random example) with Haydn's.

[Alan Howe]

I think that's perceptive - thanks, Ilja.

Of course, Leif Segerstam (b.1944 - beyond our remit) has to date written 371 symphonies....

[Ilja]

True, but the reason Segerstam has been able to get to that number is that he's reduced the amount of variables; most of them have a similar setup.

[tuatara442442]

it should also be said that to write one long piece is not equal to write shorter pieces that add up to the same time length. The beginning and ending and the exposition of ideas are not equally difficult as developing them or whatever part in the middle

[Alan Howe]

True, but the reason Segerstam has been able to get to that number is that he's reduced the amount of variables; most of them have a similar setup.

It was a bit tongue-in-cheek on my part...