Brahms '5th' Symphony (his own sketches , NOT Op. 111 Orchestrated)

[Richard Moss]

Just been playing my DGG CD of Brahms 1st and 4th Symphonies.  As it originally came without any notes, at some distant point in the past I've downloaded some notes (which in my file I've credited as 'NAXOS notes by Robert Pascall').  The reason I mention this is that he mentions 'surviving sketches for a 5th symphony' and I wondered whether (i) anyone at UC is aware of this and knows anything about their status and (ii) has anyone 'out there' done anything by way of offering a completion/orchestration (e.g. as per Newbold and Schubert).

Cheers

Richard

[Alan Howe]

This would appear to be the relevant passage from the Naxos notes by Brahms expert, the late Robert Pascall:

It was in the aftermath of the great success of the Third Symphony that Brahms wrote his Fourth, during the summers of 1884 and 1885 at the Styrian village of Mürzzuschlag. As with his other paired works, the sequel is in strong contrast to its predecessor. That Brahms aimed at such expressive difference is clear from later remarks, while exploring the idea of writing further symphonies (sketches survive for a Fifth): 'more than four symphonies are not really possible for the modern musician who would give each a characteristic content, after that one is forced to repeat oneself.' (emphasis added)
https://www.naxos.com/MainSite/BlurbsReviews/?itemcode=8.570233&catnum=570233&filetype=AboutThisRecording&language=English

A brief internet search doesn't reveal any further information, unfortunately.

[Richard Moss]

Alan,

I too drew a blank with my own internet searching. Given the 'seniority' of Brahms ranking (if I may use such a phrase) I'm very surprised - it's a bit like Beethoven's 10th symphony sketches being overlooked.  Certainly it is highly unlikely anything has been done with them, otherwise I'm sure someone on this forum would have made us aware of any such enterprise.  Another 'que sera'.

Cheers

Richard

[Arno]

Here are my two cents

1. Max Kalbeck stated that Brahms used material for the 5th symphony in the concerto for violin and cello.

2. McCorkle has in the Werkverzeichnis in Anhang III Nr.14 Sketches for orchestra probably in c minor and as Nr. 15 piano sketches. It is suggested that these sketches could relate to (another) 5th of Brahms.

[Alan Howe]

Thank you, Arno.

[Richard Moss]

Arno,

Tks v. much for the update.  Brahms 're-using' his 5th sketches in his double concerto means they have survived in some form (like Tchaikovsky and his 3rd PC/'7th' symphony??), which is pleasing, rather than them never being used (because I can't think of anything orchestral of Brahms I've heard that wasn't v. good music IMHO).

As to the 'other' 5th you mention, I presume there is too little to work with otherwise some enterprising person would have constructed a 'realisation'??  (a la HESS Beethoven fragments)

Best wishes

Richard

[Arno]

Richard,

Regarding the double concerto we only have a score written by Brahms. All other material is either lost or destroyed by Brahms. There is nothing to proof te remark of Kalbeck.

The page with sketchs for piano are also known as A 121. This page also contains sketchs for opus 117 No. 2 and 3 and opus 120 No. 1

The page with sketches for orchestra are also known as A 122. This page also contains sketches for opus 121 No. 4

I think this too little.

Regards,

Arno.

[eschiss1]

Unless there's something in his correspondence, such as the quote that may establish a relation (though not identity) between one of his discarded string quartets and one of his surviving chamber works.
(I say may; it doesn't do to take everything in his correspondence literally. His 2nd symphony isn't actually in F minor*, though his comment to that effect in a letter does, I agree with one biographer, have the effect of warning us against regarding the D major as wholly a light work and ignoring the deeper things in it )

*Or did he write F-sharp minor? Because that's almost a pun, considering how the recap opens, I think, have to check (F#-E#-F#...)