Hiller: Symphonies in E minor & F minor

[Alan Howe]

What I'm trying to establish is the extant scores because its seems to me that the suggestion is that Howard Griffiths has recorded 'all four' of Hiller's Symphonies, i.e. the only ones available to him.

[Gareth Vaughan]

Don't know about taploj's Symphony in F, but Eric is right about a Symphony in G, at least according to some contemporary sources, but I haven't been able to find a score anywhere and so I assumed it was lost. It may turn up, of course. It is supposed to bear the title "Im Freien", which I think means "out of doors", so Pastoral would be a good description.

[Alan Howe]

'Im Freien' means 'In the Open Air' or simply 'Outdoors'. 'Pastoral' is close , but rather more general.

Incidentally, there has obviously been an attempt to catalogue Hiller's works (or at least some of them), as the Ries & Erler listing reveals. I'm assuming that HW means 'Hillerwerkverzeichnis', but the remainder is guesswork:

Symphony in E minor, Op.67 HW 1.67  'Es muss doch Frühling werden'
Symphony in E minor, HW 2.4.3
Symphony in F minor, HW 2.4.4
Symphony in C major, HW 2.4.6

Maybe '1.67' indicates a known published work ('1'), followed by its opus number ('67')?
Maybe '2' indicates an unpublished work (WoO?), '4' the category 'Symphony', and the third digit the presumed order of composition dates?

Does anyone know for sure?

[Alan Howe]

Just had a reply from Howard Griffiths - how kind of him to reply so quickly!

We have recorded all four of the Hiller symphonies and I include the information about them below.

Symphonie e-Moll (E minor),'Es muß doch Frühling werden' op. 67 (das ist die 1865 im Druck erschienene Symphonie/published 1865)

2 Fl (Fl picc), 2 Ob, 2 Cl, 2 Fg, 4 Cor, 2 Tr, 3 Trb, Timp, Streicher
 
The other symphonies are early (ca.1829-34) and have only come down to us in manuscript:
 
Symphonie f-Moll (F minor)
2 Fl, 2 Ob, 2 Cl, 2 Fg, 2 Cor, 2 Tr, Timp, Streicher
 
Symphonie C-Dur (C major)
2 Fl, 2 Ob, 2 Cl, 2 Fg, 4 Cor, 2 Tr, 3 Trb, Timp, Streicher
 
Symphonie e-Moll (E minor)
2 Fl, 2 Ob, 2 Cl, 2 Fg, 4 Cor, 2 Tr, Timp, Streicher.

So: very much as we had assumed.

[eschiss1]

I'd forgotten the title, yes (or gotten confused ). Thanks! (I recall at one point from Hiller's notebook and other stuff that we thought there was yet a 4th early symphony - - but it may have been an earlier version of one of those symphonies, or... I forget now!...)
It's ok for me to mention this news on IMSLP or Wikipedia, perhaps?
Edit: in wishlist mode, I wonder if his A minor (was it?) piano concerto has been or will be recorded, from around the same time as those symphonies...

[Mark Thomas]

This really is excellent news. In this "golden age" of unsung composer recordings the neglect of Hiller has been a real oversight - maybe because no one has been lobbying loud enough, or offering financial support to get recordings made?

I hope CPO will record the C major symphony too, a fine symphony, which was composed by Hiller sometime in the 1870s - and it was his last symphony.

Judging by Howard Griffiths' reply, the C major Symphony which he has recorded isn't this one. I guess the score remains in manuscript.

[Alan Howe]

Howard Griffiths would be an excellent choice for Julius Rietz's 3rd Symphony (coupled with his 1st, maybe?)

[eschiss1]

_Is_ there more than one C major symphony by Hiller? There may only be the ca.1870 one..

[Alan Howe]

See above, Eric. Howard Griffiths has recorded a Symphony in C , which he describes as 'early' (ca. 1829-34), so unless that waited forty-odd years to be published, there must be two in that key...

IMSLP has this entry:
Symphony No.5? in C (performed at the Gewandhaus in 1877 according to Geschichte der Gewandhausconcerte zu Leipzig vom 25. November 1781 bis 25. November 1881).

So: was this a new Symphony in C or his early one? Or - unlikely, I know - are they the same work?

[eschiss1]

do you mean "performed"? since only the E minor was published until latterdays, afaik. Sorry...? Not trying to be a (), just somewhat confused. And knowing a work was performed in 1877 doesn't mean it wasn't performed earlier (I say as the person who probably wrote that line @ the IMSLP page.) Just going by best available information when I wrote that, and should have been more careful

[eschiss1]

(It would be different if some journal like NZM/AMZ had a review of the work in 1877/8 with incipits of the performed work-- as almost never happens now of course but did occasionally, back then! A practice that even continued into, e.g., early 20th century program notes, I believe.)

[Alan Howe]

do you mean "performed"?

That's what IMSLP says!

[Gareth Vaughan]

I don't know anything about an A minor piano concerto, Eric.

[tpaloj]

See above, Eric. Howard Griffiths has recorded a Symphony in C , which he describes as 'early' (ca. 1829-34), so unless that waited forty-odd years to be published, there must be two in that key...

IMSLP has this entry:
Symphony No.5? in C (performed at the Gewandhaus in 1877 according to Geschichte der Gewandhausconcerte zu Leipzig vom 25. November 1781 bis 25. November 1881).

So: was this a new Symphony in C or his early one? Or - unlikely, I know - are they the same work?

The chronology of Hiller's symphonies is a REALLY confusing subject. Reproducing many of his orchestral works from different periods of his compositional career has, I think, helped me to understand the differences between his earlier and late works somewhat. Though I'm still no Hiller expert. Regardless, I would love if more research into his music was being carried out to clear out this confusion...

The prevailing assumption to place the present C-major symphony to Hiller's early period appears to be a strong one. The following are my own conclusions – so please take them as you will – because in this case I must insist going against this popular opinion...


There is no "early" C-major symphony to my knowledge, or if there was, it hasn't been found. Incidentally, does anyone know the source which states Hiller composed a symphony in C in his early period? My own guess is that a Fraktur transcription error from "E" to "C" happened somewhere down the line of research.

The C-major symphony to which a manuscript survives, the same one published by R&E, must be the 1870s one. The handwriting, style of orchestration (and manuscript paper) used in this working manuscript is from Hiller's late period and couldn't have been composed in the 1830s. I think Howard Griffiths is mistaken in calling the C-major symphony a ca. 1829–34 work...


Yes, Alan, the F-minor symphony is the same one I created with Noteperformer in my youtube channel, a great piece, well worth hearing it finally being performed by real musicians! 

I also recreated the C-major symphony with noteperformer.

A few of Hiller's symphonies appear to be lost: the "Im freien" (or "Pastoral") Symphony in G from the 1850s which was once performed in London, and there's an entry for another early symphony "Symphonie de victoire" in one of his composition notebooks, these are both missing...


...In any case, I'm really happy to hear Mr. Howard Griffiths has recorded these four! It's a very important undertaking for certain!

[tpaloj]

'Im Freien' means 'In the Open Air' or simply 'Outdoors'. 'Pastoral' is close , but rather more general.

Incidentally, there has obviously been an attempt to catalogue Hiller's works (or at least some of them), as the Ries & Erler listing reveals. I'm assuming that HW means 'Hillerwerkverzeichnis', but the remainder is guesswork:

Symphony in E minor, Op.67 HW 1.67  'Es muss doch Frühling werden'
Symphony in E minor, HW 2.4.3
Symphony in F minor, HW 2.4.4
Symphony in C major, HW 2.4.6

Maybe '1.67' indicates a known published work ('1'), followed by its opus number ('67')?
Maybe '2' indicates an unpublished work (WoO?), '4' the category 'Symphony', and the third digit the presumed order of composition dates?

Does anyone know for sure?

To clarify this, the Hiller Werkverzeichnis listing is taken from the book "Proportio artificiosa raro usita" by Michael Gehlmann. The book includes the most complete Hiller worklist so far researched. A very handy and important study, this! The op.67 symphony is categorized among works with opus numbers, and the other symphonies are listed under the category 2.4: "Sinfonien und Orchesterwerke".