HIP - a refreshing perspective

[eschiss1]

oh, agreed.

[Maury]

Re: Seckerson review of Mahler Academy Symphony 9??

I assume the Mahler Academy recording is being referenced. The Mahler Academy according to the website is 45 students augmented by additional musicians. Does anyone know what the total forces were for this performance?

 I am perplexed by what is meant by "far exceeding" regarding Mahler who was composing most of his symphonies in the early 20th C. I don't have the booklet, only Seckerson's review. So can there be some clarification of what is "far exceeding" the orchestras of 1910 for the M9? In addition as Mahler himself said it is really not possible to mentally hear four part counterpoint clearly.

Like Seckerson, the principal issue I had with the Mahler Academy was the avoidance of vibrato which I don't think has much justification for 1910 but that is certainly not a result of sonic limitations. Seckerson also was unhappy with the "politeness" of the interpretation compared to Bernstein etc but that is simply interpretation. I can see Mahler frustrated with the Double Basses not being able to routinely go to low C1 and similar examples. Maybe he was frustrated by the somewhat primitive Contrabassoon. But the Boehm system was in force by 1910.

One major difference from 1910 is that homogeneous sound for orchestras is in vogue now where the orchestral sound from that era was more differentiated. This was particularly the case for French orchestras, which can be heard on older recordings. The sound of Russian orchestras was also influenced by the early 20th C French orchestras.

[Alan Howe]

I think it's beyond doubt that Mahler imagined a far stronger string sound than the orchestra in this new recording can muster - and so it's in the first and last movements that Seckerson's preference for what modern orchestras can offer is most obvious. I don't think this necessarily means an undifferentiated orchestral palette - just careful overall balance on the part of the conductor. So often it is the string section which is the problem in HIP recordings these days, but good historic recordings, e.g. Weingartner in Brahms pre-WW2, demonstrate that a modern orchestra, properly balanced, is perfectly capable of avoiding the 'sludge' of some performances.

[vesteel]

the principal issue I had with the Mahler Academy was the avoidance of vibrato

This is my biggest issue right now in romantic HIPs. This is an entire can of worms that I don't want to get into but the Mahler Academy 9th has the musicologist Clive Brown as their consultant, who is one of the main advocates of the "vibrato-less" approach to HIPs (which I personally don't subscribe to - especially in romantic music). Strings would simply sound thinner if played with minimal to no vibrato, no matter how many violinists you can hire.

[Alan Howe]

The problem with vibrato-less string-playing is how to sustain a continuous musical line without seeming to 'run out of breath' between phrases which can become choppy as a result. I assume it is possible to achieve this continuity but I can't say that I've heard it done successfully, especially in mid-to-late romantic music at slow tempi.

On the other hand, it has to be conceded that the cultivation of, for example, the string-rich 'Philadelphia Sound' under such conductors as Stokowski and Ormandy or the similarly string-heavy sound of the Berlin Philharmonic under Karajan has often produced recordings of a weight inappropriate to the repertoire chosen. And many of my generation who have grown up with their recordings (and the like) have to admit that getting used to something radically different is very difficult.

As ever, the answer is unlikely to lie at the extremes of this debate. Quite where the 'middle way' is to be found is likely to produce the most fruitful discussion, I think.

[Maury]

Thanks for the followups to my querulous post. Yes I can see the sonic limitations of the particular orchestra to getting the appropriate effects Mahler was likely seeking. But that is distinct from saying the best orchestras of 1910 had significant sonic limitations in playing Mahler which I found unlikely. As to Mr Howe's point about the middle way I think we should let the ear do the deciding period by period and artist by artist. The 20th C has had a plague of doctrinaire commandments that should be shelved. But I have no problem with even the Stokowski sound in orchestral works written between 1875 and 1925 even though I am a pronounced HIPster in Baroque music  from childhood. 

[Ilja]

A few years ago I spoke with an orchestral programmer who somewhat pompously declared that for him, the "vision of the composer was the only thing driving him". Still, he oversaw performances of Schubert's Unvollendete and the orchestral Pictures at an Exhibition during the same season.

Of course that reeks of hypocrisy, but it also points to the inevitability of an important element that always gets lost in discussions such as these: the practicalities of performance traditions. Schubert would likely have been abhorred by the performance of a half-symphony of his, but what is performed and how is determined by its own, individual momentum. Dogmatists serialists to HIP fanatics have attempted to rebuild music from the ground up, and have mostly failed. That is not to say that there is nothing to be learned, but it success hinges on its integration into existing performance traditions.

[Alan Howe]

Sounds sensible to me.

[Ilja]

Also, I do think the HIP movement has brought some badly needed reconsideration of the excesses of 20th century performance practice, particularly in the interpretation of tempos and ensemble (size, composition and balance; I'm not so cynical to think that was only due to financial considerations). 

However, I have no time for the claims of "authenticity". It is as disingenuous as Viollet le Duc's attempts to make French cathedrals "more medieval" or the modern re-enactment of life in Roman villages. You can make a viola da gamba sound as much like a 16th century specimen as you like, but it will still exist within a modern sound environment, heard by people whose experience is shaped very differently from those in the 16th century. And those Roman villagers usually eat pizza after a hard day of re-enactment.

[Alan Howe]

Here's an example of a decidedly non-HIP performance by a full-sized symphony orchestra of a type you won't often find today. I find it intensely thrilling - what do others think?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9plLIU6KoI0

[Mark Thomas]

One forgets - it's a wonderful performance and that majestic finale in particular is absolutely electric.

[Alan Howe]

And yet, it'd (probably) be condemned by the HIP crowd...

[Maury]

Since Brahms died in 1897 what is historically informed performance (HIP) for ca 1900 orchestral performances? Are HvK, Bernstein, Stokowski etc doing Brahms according to HIP or is the Mahler Academy Orch. doing HIP for 1900? Am I missing something as HIP should be whatever was appropriate for the times and thus variable across the decades? We have historical recordings from the 20s performed by people some of whom were playing when Brahms was alive. 

[Ilja]

Here's an example of a decidedly non-HIP performance by a full-sized symphony orchestra of a type you won't often find today. I find it intensely thrilling - what do others think?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9plLIU6KoI0

We'll have to agree to disagree here, I'm afraid. This is just too self-indulgent for my taste (my issue with most of Karajan's performances) and I don't regret that modern performance practice has moved back to the middle somewhat. Also, the sound seems quite muddy; I can barely hear most of the percussion.

[Alan Howe]

It's a live recording, of course, from London's Festival Hall back in 1988, so it was never going to be particularly hi-fi. Problem is, I grew up hearing Brahms this way - my dad had an LP with Rudolf Kempe conducting the Berlin Philharmonic - so it's hard not to hear something leaner as less desirable. No doubt all this explains why I prefer the cpo Dietrich Symphony. Oh dear, how does one escape one's past with all its prejudices...?