Case of affinity Raff/Tchaikovsky ?

[alberto]

I understand that Tchaikovsky heard a performance of Raff's Third Symphony and wrote a positive review about the work.
I am puzzled by a kind of close affinity between a rhytmic-melodic figure recurring at long, and more than once, in Raff's Finale and the rhytmic-melodic figure that pervades the whole third movement of Tchaikovsky much later (and much better) Sixth Symphony (the passage is used by the composers in different contexts; and Tchaikovsky use appears much subtler and more  determined).
Has anybody the same impression about such "affinity" and about the very existence of the affinity? If so, he/she will certainly be able to explain in better English, and better musical knowledge, than mine. 

[Mark Thomas]

I can't say that I've noticed the affinity between the Wild Hunt finale of Raff's Im Walde and the March-Scherzo of Tchaikovsky's Pathétique, beyond the obvious one of mood, but I'm certainly not saying that it isn't there. Raff definitely had an influence on Tchaikovsky; there are several passages in Raff's orchestral music which sound positively Tchaikovskian, until one realises that they were written well before the parallel passage in anything by the Russian. As to Tchaikovsky's view on Raff's Third, his review of the Symphony is quoted in full on my Raff web site here and it's generally very positive.

I'll go away and listen to the two movements to see if I hear what you hear...

[JimL]

I think he's talking about the rhythmic similarity between the march theme from the Pathetique and the "Hunt" music from the finale of Im Walde.  Other than the initial drop of a 4th, the melodic similarity fades pretty fast after that.

[Mark Thomas]

Well, I guess that's what I meant by "mood" Jim, but you've expressed it with more precision, thanks. My main point is that Tchaikovsky often apes Raff, rather than the other way around.

[eschiss1]

Well, I guess that's what I meant by "mood" Jim, but you've expressed it with more precision, thanks. My main point is that Tchaikovsky often apes Raff, rather than the other way around.

As noted by the otherwise not very positive review of the CD of Raff songs (review by David Johnson? I'll have to check...) on Hungaroton in Fanfare somewhile back it almost had to be so on chronological grounds - if not aping Raff, then composers in the general line of influence and area, if I make any sense.  (Though of course some by evidence of their correspondence etc. - not to mention MacDowell etc. - demonstrably knew their Raff.)

[Amphissa]

Tchaikovsky was surely familiar with the music of many composers. Throughout the history of music, one runs across passages here and there that are similar. Composers very often paid a little (sometimes large) homage to a fellow composer. The most obvious form involves variations on a theme, but small passages or echoes occur often. That said, I don't hear Raff when I listen to Tchaikovsky. To me, their music has almost nothing in common. If he did incorporate a snippet of a theme or orchestral effect, it may have been coincidence (which is often the case) or it may have been one of those intentional little homage moments that were very common among composers. I don't hear it, but others may.

[eschiss1]

the (non-Slavic) unsung I seem to very, very strongly recall (to the point of being nearly certain) Tchaikovsky was influenced by was Volkmann, one of whose symphonies he heard soon before beginning his 2nd symphony, I believe.  I once remembered the details better... Tchaikovsky Research probably has more than one wants to know about this (and maybe about whether or not Tchaik ever mentioned Raff in his letters, etc.)

Eric