Hey guys (and gals), I was just wondering if people here agree with me. Are current recordings of unsung music (actually, unsung symphonic music, as chamber music fare a whole lot better) standart's a bit low?
I mean, I absolutely love Ries' symphonic music (for example), but whenever I listen to the available cds I can't help but wonder if it wouldn't sound 10x better were, say, Harnoncourt conducting the WPO. And wouldn't it also factor into why acceptance isn't as high as we'd hope?
Just a thought...
Possibly, but three points in response:
1. There's a lot of guesswork involved in this. Harnoncourt, for example, is no favourite of mine (I personally often find him wilful).
2. We should be thoroughly grateful to those dedicated and able musicians who do attempt unsung music.
3. Beggars can't be choosers...
Having said which, I'd dearly love to hear Abbado in Raff 3 with the Lucerne Festival Orchestra...
"Beggars can't be choosers" seems the most appropriate response. A first-rate orchestra is an extremely expensive proposition, and that makes it extremely conservative. Most first-rate conductors don't even know the names, let alone the works, of most unsung composers, and they're not going to "waste" precious time learning them as long as audiences and critics still want to hear what they do with the standard repertoire. There are thousands of contemporary composers demanding that contemporary orchestras play more contemporary works (which they do - once - for the sake of performing a "premiere"). And let's face it: the unsung composer of the past is a minority interest in what, culturally speaking, has become a minority interest itself (i.e. classical music).
So, on a practical level, I suppose we should be thankful that there are ANY decent conductors and orchestras (and radio networks and record companies) who are even willing to perform the kind of stuff that we love, and that the results are so often as good as they are.
Spot on, dafrieze.
As an enthusiastic listener (but no more!), I have no idea of the economics of researching, preparing, producing, marketing and distributing an 'unsung', even if the scores are available with a library or publisher (it must be even more of an overhead if the scores are missing or need to be recreated - e.g. Brull or Draeseke VC?) and, having incurred the cost, I've no what sort of sales might result.
A previous comment, quite rightly, praised CPO for accepting the overhead of producing the 'complete' works of xyz, not just (their guess) at the most popular items (credits also to Sterling, Hyperion, Danacord, Chandos et al also come to mind as well as Dutton and some of the French/Benelux labels who seem committed to their national composers regardless of cost!
One of the issues surely is not just comments about how 'nicer' some works might sound if recorded with a 1st division team but why unsungs remain unsung. How many years ago was 'The Lark Ascending' and unsung and what happened to change its status?
When I look at what is offered for local concerts (in my case, the 'SAGE', Gateshead), I might well see a modern work I've never heard of coupled with some standard repertoire (I guess the latter to pull the punters in) but I've never noticed a 19th century unsung. Nuff said!
Best wishes
Richard
Right on, Richard. You want first rate, you get war horses. And I can't think of a more fitting example than the Hyperion 50th PC recordings. Get the Minnesota orchestra, Vanska and Stephen Hough and you get the Tchaikovsky first. The Minnesota doesn't DO unsungs. The last one I can remember was Moscheles Concertante for flute and oboe and that was at least 35 years ago....
I've been a season subscriber for over 50 years. What puzzles me is that week after week they program some piece of mid 20th century music (and I use that word so as not to offend those of us who appreciate such things) - music that I expect 2/3rds of the audience has no understanding of (and would happily leave if they had the courage to program it last on the program). The alternative (even if only once a year) would be to program one of the hundreds of unsung works that all of us love. And audiences would react accordingly. And go home a helluva lot happier.....
Get off the soapbox, jer.......
Jerry
I may have given the wrong impression... Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% in the "beggars can't be choosers" zone, and I'm most grateful for the balls CPO, Hyperion, Sterling and others have to go ahead with these projects.
It's just that the mind does wonder while listening. I mean, take Ries' 7th Symphony, the strings are scrawny, the performance can't carry momentum equally across all sections of a movement and there are serious phrasing issues. When I first heard it I was flabbergasted, "why haven't I seen this live yet??", but on repeated hearing you do wish for better performances.
Also, Harnoncourt and the WPO was just something that popped on my head (even though the WPO will always pop on my head...)
to correct by the way a misapprehension that i sometimes see... somewhat better-known conductors and orchestras do indeed conduct and take some of these works on tour - one of Onslow's symphonies some years back i seem to recall is a good example, taken on tour through Great Britain by a fairly well-known conductor - better-known than the cpo and Ligia recording conductors..., will have to look up the details... but do not then commercially record them. I wasn't there- this was after the second of my two brief visits to the Isles - but I did read about that in the Musical Times i think, and other examples should not be hard to find either.
Slatkin's broadcast recording of Ropartz's symphony no.5 - maybe some day that will be released commercially, but this is a thread only about commercial recordings i think... not sure... - is another example...
I come down on both sides of this. Yes, big orchestras with big name conductors are expensive. But there are big orchestras with big name conductors who play unsungs in concert. And in fact, they do occasionally do first tier recordings. They just don't do studio recordings of the complete works of an unsung. At least, not often. There are exceptions even to that.
For example, Dausgaard's recordings of the Langgaard symphonies with the Danish National Orchestra. There have been quite a few very good recordings of the music of Myaskovsky over the years, although many were on LP. Paavo Jarvi has made some terrific recordings of Tubin. There are fine recordings of Chausson, Taneyev, Karlowicz, Berwald, Magnard, et al.
The problem is completists. There is just a much bigger audience for the complete works of Beethoven than for the complete works of an unsung. cpo and other smaller labels to us a great service in producing collections -- music that falls into a small niche market (that's us). They need to keep their costs down in order to break even on these collections.
So I am thankful to the small labels who specialize in music we want to hear. And tremendously thankful to the big name orchestra and conductor who decide to include an unsung on one of their disks, offering exposure of an unsung to a much larger audience.
Perhaps Naxos had the best idea of all in their coupling of the Reinecke flute and harp concertos. In each concerto, the soloist in one was the conductor in the other, with the same orchestra (Swedish Chamber Orchestra, I believe) accompanying. A very economical concept.
I guess that over the decades I've come to accept the fact that if I want to hear some obscure music, I'll have to put up with some lousy playing and conducting. When Marco Polo first came out many years back there were plenty of examples. It's really expensive to hire and record orchestral music, so rehearsals were minimal and low cost orchestras the order of the day. Nonetheless, I bought most of them just to finally be able to hear these forgotten works.
But this was nothing new. Back in the 60's and 70's there were several record companies recording obscure music: Vox and it's subsidiary Candide, Genesis, and others. You want to hear bad playing, try the Raff 3rd with the orchestra from Recklinghausen. The Nuremburg orchestra in the Rubinstein concerti.
I am very grateful for the large number of obscure works that have been recorded with overall pretty good orchestras and in generally fine sound. You don't need the Berlin Philharmonic all the time. And there have been plenty of recordings of lesser-known orchestras that have demonstrated a very high level of performance. That's a testament to the extraordinary quality of music schools these days. One of my favorite sets of Beethoven symphonies comes from Des Moines, Iowa of all places.
I'd like to hear Rott's symphony with say Haitink (Concertgebouw) or Jurowski (LPO). There again, my fav Bruckner 3 is Tintner (Royal Scottish SO), or for Szymanowski violin concerto: Khadem-Missagh, NTO Tonkuenster Vienna. Those with world class reputations don't always play their heart out but less known performers sometimes do.
that said, too, while i haven't heard it yet, i can well believe the rave reviews for the semi-commercial recording of Kubelik conducting the Bavarian RSO in Suk's Asrael symphony that came out some years back, many reviewers placing it at or near the top except possibly for Talich and a couple of other really classic versions. i can easily believe Kubelik tops my Neumann cd and probably the Pesek Virgin C. recording i used to have, good though that was...
then again i still remember when that , and Shostakovich's 4th symphony too, were - in the latter half of my brief lifetime - more recently even - considered ridiculously obscure and out-there repertoire. .
.. then again considering that a composer i'd never heard of until last year, Ewald Straesser, had his symphonies performed at least 2 or 3 times by Furtwängler , and by other top conductors of the day too ... erm... erm. well, that's what sinking without a trace does for one - very very similarly Weismann, others... never mind- we were saying...
Quote from: Paul Barasi on Tuesday 26 July 2011, 03:17
I'd like to hear Rott's symphony with say Haitink (Concertgebouw) or Jurowski (LPO). There again, my fav Bruckner 3 is Tintner (Royal Scottish SO), or for Szymanowski violin concerto: Khadem-Missagh, NTO Tonkuenster Vienna. Those with world class reputations don't always play their heart out but less known performers sometimes do.
hear hear! That Bruckner 3rd with Tintner is nothing short of phenomenal! I also agree with the last sentence, one of my favourite conductors is Christoph Spering and his rendition of Kalliwoda's 5th and 7th is superb (imho), Bernius is also fine in the 6th. Willens isn't, however in the 2nd and 4th, nor is Mosesus in the 3rd. I have Vonk's performances here and they satisfy me better even with atrocious sound (if I can and people want, I'll upload it).
I always return to Ries, I guess. I dislike the symphonies' and that oratorio's performances, the chamber music is well represented, at least.
Quote from: Paul Barasi on Tuesday 26 July 2011, 03:17
I'd like to hear Rott's symphony with say Haitink (Concertgebouw) or Jurowski (LPO).
Well, you'll soon be able to hear Paavo Järvi (FrankfurtRSO) on RCA...
I return to the starting point. If I read my list of eight "desert island" works, which is unbalanced towards end XIX-early XX century, I see works by composers who enjoyed the advocacy, for once or for many times, even on record, of "big" name (or "semi-big") conductors, associated to orchestras outstanding or good. I refer in general, not precisely to the works in my list. Magnard: Ansermet (and the "completists" are good). Martucci: Toscanini, Muti. Berwald: Markevich, Celibidache, Ehrling, N.Jaarvi, Shmidt-Isserstedt, Dausgaard. Pizzetti: Vanska. G.Butterworth: Boult, Barbirolli, Stokowski, Marriner, Tate.
Busoni: Muti, Gielen, Barenboim, Boult, N.Jaarvi, Rozdestvenskj, Sinopoli, Von Dohnanhy, Elder, P.Jordan, Leitner.
Dukas: Fournet, Tortelier, A.Jordan, Foster, Martinon, Zinman (even Boulez for "La Péri").
Falla Homenajes: Ansermet, Lopez-Cobos (I had even a Claudio Abbado radio broadcast).
I admit that Bethoven contemporaries or roughly contemporaries are in general worse served. Same for Brams contemporaries.
indeed, the first time I heard a Magnard symphony it was Ansermet's recording though I'd seen references to his violin sonata and other works broadcast by the local radio when I was working - food service... - at Interlochen a few summers before that, I think. and agreed re Martucci with those off-air Toscanini recordings etc.- and who too, in his day- not a matter of recordings but of advocacy, a related topic - himself as conductor, gave local premieres of English works and Wagner operas, I believe. ... hrm. can't seem to find out whose symphony it was that i mentioned earlier in this thread, just now, or who the conductor was who planned to take it on tour- i think it was mentioned in the insert the Musical Times used to have, or something like that, or it may been somewhere more recent. will find out. thought it was interesting and somewhat related if not quite. if true, it's possible that conductor might record the work. --- and i do hope that tapes exist of the Furtwängler Strässer symphonies - 4, 5 and 6 - and Keilberth's 1951 Weismann sinfonietta giocosa, and if so, that they will find cd enregistrement :) though i haven't heard these performances or, i think, these works yet.
For me, I less care about technical perfection than I do about sheer musicality, as it were. I've heard many a dreadfully BORING recording from the top conductors/orchestras, -- even in many cases where they are quite highly praised, to me there's just no....je nai se qua, as it were. Or at times when they are so slow (or occasionally fast) I wonder what the conductor was drinking that day.
It reminds me of an apparently true but nasty experiment many years back when a new teacher was told which students were top and bottom and although it was complete rubbish nevertheless they then got marked as advertised. Praise seems to be given to the big names whilst others giving better performances can be ignored. Whilst we have different things that we like or our ears listen for, there is such a thing as performance quality, which can be recognised. Apart from that, for me, it is also about taking risks in being prepared to do it differently, having an imaginative vision of the piece as a whole and having a good feel for pace. The big names are technically good but often sound much the same. However, the field shortens with a lot of unsung music because there are fewer versions released and the big names are happier bashing out the popular stuff that is easier and more profitable.
Quote from: Paul Barasi on Wednesday 27 July 2011, 00:31
It reminds me of an apparently true but nasty experiment many years back when a new teacher was told which students were top and bottom and although it was complete rubbish nevertheless they then got marked as advertised. Praise seems to be given to the big names whilst others giving better performances can be ignored. Whilst we have different things that we like or our ears listen for, there is such a thing as performance quality, which can be recognised. Apart from that, for me, it is also about taking risks in being prepared to do it differently, having an imaginative vision of the piece as a whole and having a good feel for pace. The big names are technically good but often sound much the same. However, the field shortens with a lot of unsung music because there are fewer versions released and the big names are happier bashing out the popular stuff that is easier and more profitable.
But the thing with big names is that usually the ensembles (I should have restricted the initial post to symphonic/large ensembles) are much better. Some playing of unsung music can become quite ugly, even if the spirit is there.
The fact is that great orchestras can play in a thoroughly routine manner and great conductors can have an off-night (or three); in the same way, lesser orchestras can rise above themselves and a less well-known conductor can sometimes be magnificent. In my experience, many recordings of unsung music recorded these days by orchestras and conductors of less than the front rank leave very little to be desired and some are quite superb.
We may wish that all the great orchestras and conductors might routinely programme and record unsung music - but it ain't going to happen...
I've been looking over the programming for the summer festivals and the upcoming concert seasons for orchestras in the US. It's becoming so predictable, so boring, so repetitious. Orchestra after orchestra: Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Beethoven, Schumann, Mendelssohn, and on and on. Some orchestras occassionally pull out some odd piece (Manfred Symphony) and a fair amount of ultra-modern. But the sense of adventure just isn't there at all. Even the great touring orchestras like Berlin and Vienna in Carnegie Hall are doing pretty routine stuff. With each new generation of conductors they must prove themselves with the traditional core repertoire I suppose. Thank the almighty for the recording companies, the tireless producers, and the few conductors we have to go outside the box.
I have not looked at the recent programs, but the Concertgebouw used to feature works by Dutch composers and other lesser known composers from the region.
I keep waiting for an American orchestra to jump in with a big season of nothing but American composers. Yes, it would require Gershwin, Bernstein and Copeland to attract the audiences. But how great it would be to hear the NYPO, Philadelphia, Chicago, Cleveland, San Francisco, Los Angeles or Atlanta orchestra give a full season of solid performances of Hansen, Paine, Beach, Foote, Chadwick, Parker, et al.
Awful as it is, I am convinced that as a living art, symphonic classical music, at least in the concert hall, is as good as dead. The increasing reduction of the repertory, the 'star system' and obsessively risk-averse impresarios have each played a role in killing off an art form that not so long ago seemed to be an integral part of our global cultural ecosystem. Recent attempts to launch new 'stars' would have been laughable had they not pointed out the Inherent breakdown of the whole genre.
New potential 'customers' are repelled by the omnipresence of form (the conscious construction of all sorts of barriers against first-time visitors) over function (presenting an exciting cultural product). I wouldn't be surprised if ten years from now, about a quarter of the world's orchestras are gone. And in their present state, I'm not all that certain I could object. I just hope that a number of gems can be recorded - because they DO have a chance to stay with us.
But then, I'm an optimist.
The interesting thing is, in the U.S. at least, there are more orchestras than ever playing music. The number of community orchestras and regional orchestras is amazing. In the large area surrounding NY city, to include New Jersey, eastern Pennsylvania and western Connecticut, there are probably 35-50 community orchestras. The musicians are often employed in other lines of work, but play for the love of it. And their audiences are there because they love the music, not the glamor of Lincoln Center and its stars.
So, yes, I agree, a lot of the big orchestras may go bankrupt and shutter their doors. And I agree that a large part of the reason is the constant repetition of warhorses. IMO, though, there will always be orchestras playing music. Every large city will have an orchestra. And the many community and regional orchestras will continue. Unfortunately, most of the community and regional orchestras are just as fixated on standard repertoire as the large orchestras.
Where are the exciting young maestros who will take a community orchestra into new territory? The American Symphony Orchestra was founded to play lesser known composers and works. It has performed some excellent programs (Wellesz, Gliere, etc). But to my mind, under leadership of Botstein, it has not fulfilled its promise. Where is a great maestro who will take the Orchestra of St Lukes or the Park Avenue Community Orchestra into new and exciting territory?
It's once, not a pattern, and 2 decades ago, not now, but the Orchestra of St. Lukes did have three concerts in May of 1990 with works of Moór (concerto op.69), Reznicek (violin concerto and 3 symphonies), Weingartner (Lustige-ouverture), Popper (one of the cello concertos), ... enter Forgotten Romantics into Worldcat.org .
A few years ago, before its conductor of the time died, there was the Jupiter Symphony Chamber Players in New York City and its associated orchestra the Jupiter Symphony. Still pretty good in repertoire choice - judging from the calendar at Jupiter Symphony (http://www.jupitersymphony.com/) their chamber concerts include a pretty good selection including Weingartner's octet, Szell's piano quintet, Farrenc's first piano quintet, etc. (oh, and Thieriot's Octet op62, Röntgen's trio op.21, Martucci's quintet...) Doesn't quite answer your question, I know...