The Brabbins performance at the Proms (17th July 2011) is to be issued by Hyperion on 28th November -
http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?al=CDA67971/2 (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?al=CDA67971/2)
(http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/034571179711.png)
Not so sure about the cover image, but it will be very interesting to hear how the sonics have been handled in comparison to the broadcast.
;D
Lovely jubbly, John. I feel a Xmas present to self coming on...
Ouch - that is a TERRIBLE cover! Looks like it should have ivy and tombstones...Strikes me as a big marketing opportunity badly missed!
Obviously not designed to attract the usual classical buyers....maybe those whose associations with Gothic run more to Peter Murphy and Bela Lugosi's Dead?
The design may not make my heart sing, but the 8+ minute applause track does :).
David
Would have been nice had they split up the tracks....
I hope the cover isn't definitive... And I wonder how (if) they have corrected some of the slight mistakes on the night.
Quote from: TerraEpon on Saturday 01 October 2011, 20:47
Would have been nice had they split up the tracks....
I'm afraid I disagree. Whenever single movements are given multiple internal tracks I lose a sense of the overall structure as I'm consciously listening out for the next cued section. A prime example of over-tracking is the Marco Polo (now Naxos) disc of Brian's 20th and 25th Symphonies.
I'm all for pointing out salient points of interest in a movement, but if it looks 'bitty' in the description that I read (with multiple cues within a movement), my ear somehow interprets it in a sectional way when listening.
???
And with a multi-track design like the Marco Polo/Naxos Gothic, I wish they'd gone a bit further and added tempo or rehearsal numbers as has become fairly standard practice (well, at least on DG? :) ) for similarly "overtracked" Mahler symphony CDs. Admittedly the score has not been easily available (it's only PD-US and then only because of failure of the publisher to properly register the score or something like) but much better descriptions of the various tracks than are given by Marco Polo can fairly easily be had once one -does- have the Cranz score in front of one (e.g., for the second movement -
*II Lento espressivo e solenne (7 bars before 29)
*II Lento espressivo e solenne - central episode (ca.35)
*II Lento espressivo e solenne - climax (1 after 39) (With utmost breadth, like a ceremonial-triumphal march)
Frankly, it matters to me not a jot whether the recording is multi-tracked or not - I'm just glad to have the best performance the piece has ever been given commercially available.
QuoteFrankly, it matters to me not a jot whether the recording is multi-tracked or not - I'm just glad to have the best performance the piece has ever been given commercially available.
Hear, hear! And I couldn't give two stuffs about the cover either. I don't buy CDs for their covers. If this one attracts a few more people who otherwise wouldn't give this work a second glance, that's all to the good.
This is excellent news! I was lucky enough to have been there to hear this live. Not too keen on the cover, but really it's what's inside that counts, and I'm glad they've left in the applause too!
The booklet notes for this new release are now available by following the link given in the first post.
:)
...and Presto are advertising it:
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Hyperion/CDA67971%252F2 (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Hyperion/CDA67971%252F2)
Audio samples are now available here...
http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/ym.asp?ym=2011_12 (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/ym.asp?ym=2011_12)
I seriously wish they would rethink the cover......
I have the dreadful suspicion that whoever made that cover thinks 'Gothic' has something to do with horror and not architecture or a period in history...
I think it's the whole "Goths wear black" thing.
If Goths are going to buy this, they'll be in for a surprise.
Though you never know - some of them may actually like it!
Again, I have to say that I care not one jot about the design of the CD booklet's cover. I shan't be looking at the front when I'm reading what's inside and only the spine will be visible on my shelf...
I'm 100% with Alan. Who cares about the cover!? It's the music that matters.
I don't care about the cover, either. I know and love Brian's music and I might even only buy the download... But this isn't about us, Brian enthusiasts and the already-converted. This is about making Havergal Brian attractive to those who don't know him yet, but who might be interested. And then packaging does matter. That's all.
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on Thursday 13 October 2011, 17:33But this isn't about us [and] packaging does matter.
Yes, cover-art
does matter if you are trying to preach to the unconverted, as Westminster Gold would no doubt agree. Although (to coin the vulgar vernacular) a phrase involving "fire" and "mantlepiece" may spring to mind, a product that looks attractive is perhaps more likely to fall off the shelf into a waiting basket than one that looks as though nobody could be bothered to give much thought to it.
:o
I don't find the cover at all unacceptable.
Anyway, we've covered this issue now, so let's concentrate on the musical result - which, to my ears and from the excerpts I've heard, sounds better balanced than the radio broadcast.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_9nKbRW8wVKk/TE2g873GHJI/AAAAAAAAAVk/aP5IpNhRfWM/s1600/Heino+-+Liebe+Mutter.jpg)
It could have been worse!
Sorry, I know there is a specific topic for these covers...
Morten
Quote from: M. Henriksen on Thursday 13 October 2011, 19:15
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_9nKbRW8wVKk/TE2g873GHJI/AAAAAAAAAVk/aP5IpNhRfWM/s1600/Heino+-+Liebe+Mutter.jpg)
It could have been worse!
Sorry, I know there is a specific topic for these covers...
Morten
AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AWAY FROM ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
;D ;D ;D
Quick, paste it into http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,647.0.html (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,647.0.html)
;D
Quote from: Alan Howe on Thursday 13 October 2011, 19:05
Anyway, we've covered this issue now, so let's concentrate on the musical result - which, to my ears and from the excerpts I've heard, sounds better balanced than the radio broadcast.
I agree, the sound has more depth.
A quick phone-call to MDT this morning suggests that they will be selling it at £19.90, although the set is not actually on their system yet.
Presto Classical is offering it at 17 pounds. Hyperion is on sale. Just ordered.
Dan
Update: My cost is without VAT.
The website says £20.40...
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/futurereleases.php?composer=Brian&work=&performer=&medium=all&label=&cat= (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/futurereleases.php?composer=Brian&work=&performer=&medium=all&label=&cat=)
With and without VAT I guess.
So who's going to sell it sans VAT? HMV?
If you're outside the EU, as I guess hemmesjo is (and I am), he will see the VATfree price.
But not a postage-free price, presumably...
amazon.co.uk does postage free to Norway at least. But they are usually not the cheapest regarding new releases But not being a certified member of the Brian fanclub (now I've said it) I haven't studied prices on this release in detail.
At least you wrote "certified" rather than "certifiable" ;D
Yes I did, but I did think about it for a pretty long time before finally deciding.
...here's MusicWeb's review:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Nov11/Brian_Gothic_CDA679712.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Nov11/Brian_Gothic_CDA679712.htm)
An evening I shall NEVER forget ;D :) ;D
Nor me!
;D
Apart from, perhaps, The Trojans under Colin Davis a decade ago at the Barbican, this was the most memorable concert I have ever been to. For splendour and spectacle nothing could touch it.
How many of US were there? Yes, it was an absolutely amazing night, and I'm not even that fond of the Gothic.
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Monday 21 November 2011, 22:23
How many of US were there? Yes, it was an absolutely amazing night, and I'm not even that fond of the Gothic.
Yourself, Alan, Albion. vandermolen, J.Z. Herrenberg(by truly amazing coincidence i was sitting next to Johan :))). myself.............
...and Martin Anderson a few rows behind Mark and myself.
And the composer John Pickard (one of the moving spirits behind the whole undertaking) was sitting next to my sister...
The set is available for pre-order from Amazon.co.uk at £19.15 (postage-free within the UK):
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brian-Symphony-Gothic-HYPERION-CDA67971/dp/B005Z4D2EW/ref=lh_ni_t (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brian-Symphony-Gothic-HYPERION-CDA67971/dp/B005Z4D2EW/ref=lh_ni_t)
Quote from: Alan Howe on Monday 21 November 2011, 18:58
...here's MusicWeb's review:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Nov11/Brian_Gothic_CDA679712.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Nov11/Brian_Gothic_CDA679712.htm)
Alan has provided this link to the Musicweb review.
At the end of that review there is a further link to an article on the Gothic and the Critics written by Brian Reinhart. Brian is a young man from Texas who was studying for a year at Queen Mary College, University of London and attended the Proms Gothic shortly before returning home. He is active on another music forum of which I am a member( ;D) and is a quite astonishingly good and incredibly perceptive writer.
I commend his article(and indeed others he has written) with the greatest possible enthusiasm.
Quote from: Dundonnell on Tuesday 22 November 2011, 17:27I commend his article(and indeed others he has written) with the greatest possible enthusiasm.
And so do I.
And I. :) Safe-but-far-away-in-Texas-now, Brian is also on Twitter as @bgreinhart 8)
According to a member of another forum, who has downloaded the new Hyperion recording, Apart from some muffled coughs all the unwanted noise has been removed. I can't hear any instrumental mistakes and even the drops in pitch seem to have been sorted out.
I have already pre-ordered the Gothic and look forward to hearing probably as near-perfect a rendition as we are ever likely to have. This raises some issues which might possibly be worth discussing: personally I am all in favour of 'cleaning up' recordings of this magnitude where mistakes would become tiresome and frustrating on repeated listening, but I think that editing ought to be openly acknowledged and credited in the literature accompanying the commercial release.
I remember being pleased that several fluffed moments in the 1994 Proms revival of Ethel Smyth's The Wreckers had been 'ironed out' when the CD set was released by Conifer, but what I heard was not the performance as broadcast live and nothing about this was mentioned either in reviews or by the issuing company themselves.
Any thoughts?
???
Quote from: Albion on Saturday 26 November 2011, 10:42
I remember being pleased that several fluffed moments in the 1994 Proms revival of Ethel Smyth's The Wreckers had been 'ironed out' when the CD set was released by Conifer, but what I heard was not the performance as broadcast live and nothing about this was mentioned either in reviews or by the issuing company themselves.
A good question, John. According to Wikipedia, Glenn Gould "likened his process [of editing] to that of a film director—one does not perceive that a two-hour film was made in two hours—and implicitly asks why the act of listening to music should be any different". A great mate of mine who is a very highly regarded classical record producer takes exactly the same line and, for what it's worth, so do I. When a CD is of a public performance, I can't see any objection to the booklet note making it clear that some 'cleaning up' has taken place but I wouldn't die in a ditch over it.
Quote from: Albion on Saturday 26 November 2011, 10:42According to a member of another forum, who has downloaded the new Hyperion recording, Apart from some muffled coughs all the unwanted noise has been removed. I can't hear any instrumental mistakes and even the drops in pitch seem to have been sorted out.
On principle I would delete any file from BMB once the same performance is issued commercially. As Hyperion
have issued a commercial recording, this raises a tricky issue for me: should I now delete the file from BMB which is the 'warts and all' performance, or should it stand as a more 'accurate' record of a great evening of music-making at the Royal Albert Hall?
???
I think it should stand. After all, the broadcast was not of the Hyperion recording...
Just what I was thinking.
:)
Applause is included, I note, but as it's a separate track I can choose not to play it. And anyway, after an event like this (even if 'cleaned up'), the applause is rather worth hearing perhaps once.
Quote from: Jimfin on Sunday 27 November 2011, 13:34after an event like this (even if 'cleaned up'), the applause is rather worth hearing perhaps once.
One or two of the first 'bravos' were offered by ...
;)
Quote from: Albion on Sunday 27 November 2011, 16:28
One or two of the first 'bravos' were offered by ...
;)
... most of the consecutive were mine. ;)
They're still at it -
(http://www.wfmu.org/Playlists/Monica/applause1234363884-1.gif)
;D
Review in today's Observer (with comment by HBS Chairman John Grimshaw):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/nov/27/havergal-brian-gothic-symphony-1-review (http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/nov/27/havergal-brian-gothic-symphony-1-review)
Nothing of any great insight here, then -
Of his symphonies most of them never played ...
::) hmm, the BBC in the 1950s-1970s, Lyrita, EMI, Marco Polo ... ?
a thrilling and bizarre BBC Proms performance ...
::) ::) hmm, meaningless, lazy adjectives ... ?
but it is just as well then that Few regard it as a masterpiece ...
::) ::) ::) hmm, that dreaded word 'masterpiece' - who gives a flying flip whether it is or it isn't and what does the word mean beyond subjective prosletysing anyway?
Saints preserve us from 'music critics' - what a load of old cobblers.
I agree that my word 'review' oversells it a bit. ;)
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on Sunday 27 November 2011, 22:25I agree that my word 'review' oversells it a bit. ;)
As with many such scribbles, the question arises - why bother to write it in the first place (other than to claim the fee - well, what with the economy in the state it is, journos haven't got fifty-pound notes to rub together)?
:'(
It adds nothing, describes nothing and advocates nothing. Pointless.
>:(
Shocking though, isn't it? How long do you think it might take to come to terms with a work like the 'Gothic' anyway? It's a piece I first heard thirty-five years or so ago when a friend of a friend of mine from university played us his reel-to-reel recording of the Boult performance. And I have listened to it at intervals ever since as each new performance has come along. And I'm still coming to terms with it. How dare some so-called critic commit such superficial clichés to print. Better to have kept quiet in the face of such music than to have uttered these inanities, methinks.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Sunday 27 November 2011, 22:40
Shocking though, isn't it? How long do you think it might take to come to terms with a work like the 'Gothic' anyway? It's a piece I first heard thirty-five years or so ago when a friend of a friend of mine from university played us his reel-to-reel recording of the Boult performance. And I have listened to it at intervals ever since as each new performance has come along. And I'm still coming to terms with it. How dare some so-called critic commit such superficial clichés to print. Better to have kept quiet in the face of such music than to have uttered these inanities, methinks.
Stupidity is often audacious.
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on Sunday 27 November 2011, 22:48Stupidity is often audacious.
Yes, audacious enough to pull the wool over the eyes of a general readership, and ignorant enough to believe its own rhetorical self-importance.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Sunday 27 November 2011, 22:40Better to have kept quiet in the face of such music than to have uttered these inanities, methinks.
Absolutely Alan. She has had (or should have made sure she had, but clearly hasn't) access to at least the Boult and Lenard performances - and thinks that she can then approach such an extended, sophisticated and complicated choral-symphonic work with 'innocent ears'...
:o
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on Sunday 27 November 2011, 22:48
Quote from: Alan Howe on Sunday 27 November 2011, 22:40
Shocking though, isn't it? How long do you think it might take to come to terms with a work like the 'Gothic' anyway? It's a piece I first heard thirty-five years or so ago when a friend of a friend of mine from university played us his reel-to-reel recording of the Boult performance. And I have listened to it at intervals ever since as each new performance has come along. And I'm still coming to terms with it. How dare some so-called critic commit such superficial clichés to print. Better to have kept quiet in the face of such music than to have uttered these inanities, methinks.
Stupidity is often audacious.
Sadly, it is also
infectious.
If anyone could write a Dunciad today, it would contain many more books than the four Pope could fill.
I agree completely with the statement about too many tracks.
It reminds me of the way Bernstein's Mahler series on SONY was mutilated into spagetti. I was so annoyed with all the detail I almost sent it back and I never listen to it anymore! Not everyone is a music major.
As far as the CD cover, I've seen a alot more offensive trash hitting the market under the guise of culture.
hrm... I wasn't a music major and will put in a vote for more tracks rather than fewer (and the Mahler scores, unlike the Brian- oh wait, the Brian too, in the USA now... are available to read with . I read music scores before considering becoming a music major, I continue to read them despite not being one, and I ignore the laws on the books that forbid me, if I follow this line of reasoning right, to do so without a degree. Phtpppttth to those laws, anyway.)
Since listening with a score to hand becomes a lot more convenient with more tracks, I stand by my opinion, then :) (especially when the CD booklet cross-references the score like the DG recording of Abbado's Mahler 7 does. I created such a cross-reference/whatever for the Marco Polo recording of the Brian 1st once the Cranz score was determined to be PD-US and went up on IMSLP...)
Eric:
I close my eyes and try to immerse myself in the music, anything else is a distraction.
In the Bernstein/Sony/Mahler's case, when movements were excessively divided into subatomic particles, I had to open the player display several times to see where Mahler and I were. Lets suffice to say when when we listen, I'll drive the Chevy and you can have the Lexus.
Quote from: eschiss1 on Sunday 27 November 2011, 23:28
hrm... I wasn't a music major and will put in a vote for more tracks rather than fewer (and the Mahler scores, unlike the Brian- oh wait, the Brian too, in the USA now... are available to read with . I read music scores before considering becoming a music major, I continue to read them despite not being one, and I ignore the laws on the books that forbid me, if I follow this line of reasoning right, to do so without a degree. Phtpppttth to those laws, anyway.)
Since listening with a score to hand becomes a lot more convenient with more tracks, I stand by my opinion, then :) (especially when the CD booklet cross-references the score like the DG recording of Abbado's Mahler 7 does. I created such a cross-reference/whatever for the Marco Polo recording of the Brian 1st once the Cranz score was determined to be PD-US and went up on IMSLP...)
Quote from: Jimfin on Sunday 27 November 2011, 13:34
Applause is included, I note, but as it's a separate track I can choose not to play it. And anyway, after an event like this (even if 'cleaned up'), the applause is rather worth hearing perhaps once.
Indeed, at 9 minutes that's enough for me to NOT buy this, especially at over $30.
Inferior it may be, I guess I gotta keep the Naxos.
Quote from: TerraEpon on Monday 28 November 2011, 06:43
Quote from: Jimfin on Sunday 27 November 2011, 13:34
Applause is included, I note, but as it's a separate track I can choose not to play it. And anyway, after an event like this (even if 'cleaned up'), the applause is rather worth hearing perhaps once.
Indeed, at 9 minutes that's enough for me to NOT buy this, especially at over $30.
Inferior it may be, I guess I gotta keep the Naxos.
I downloaded it from Hyperion (which is possible in a lossless format) for £14.99; quite a saving. I didn't bother to download the applause which I would have deleted anyway.
Something to consider?
Quote from: TerraEpon on Monday 28 November 2011, 06:43
Inferior it may be, I guess I gotta keep the Naxos.
I've always liked it a lot - but don't tell anyone..........
Why anyone would want to pay £1.10 for nearly 9 minutes of applause I'm not sure! However, I would say that as an mp3 download the recording strikes me as a bargain, especially since one is not compelled to buy the applause. That said, I don't object to the applause on the CD - I just wouldn't buy it as a download.
Quote from: Gareth Vaughan on Monday 28 November 2011, 12:05Why anyone would want to pay £1.10 for nearly 9 minutes of applause I'm not sure!
Yes, the concept is bizarre - it should have been offered for free. Still at least it can be hived off the download list.
Amazon sent me notification yesterday to say that my discs have shipped - typically, the price has crept up again, so I'm glad that I pre-ordered.
;D
I'm afraid I was old-fashioned and walked into a real live record shop, Tower Records in Shinjuku, which actually has a labelled "Brian" section, not just a "Composers B" one (though admittedly the only other discs in there were the Boult Gothic and the first Toccata disc) and bought the new CD, physically carrying it home. Call me a reactionary... Of course, I'm lucky to work near a shop where one can just buy Havergal Brian off the shelf.
Very, since iirc Tower Records in my country at least has folded completely (... well, no, there is still a "tower.com" but no, no physical Tower Records in the USA that I am aware of.)
Another review, a rather mixed one, but more tending to the negative:
http://entartetemusik.blogspot.com/2011/11/striving-with-all-its-might.html#!/2011/11/striving-with-all-its-might.html (http://entartetemusik.blogspot.com/2011/11/striving-with-all-its-might.html#!/2011/11/striving-with-all-its-might.html)
Yes, in the UK too, I believe. On the other hand, HMV's completely gone here, and Virgin.
Quote from: hattoff on Monday 28 November 2011, 09:54
I downloaded it from Hyperion (which is possible in a lossless format) for £14.99; quite a saving. I didn't bother to download the applause which I would have deleted anyway.
Something to consider?
If Hyperion lowered it's prices a little (and I do mean a little) I might. Right now they hover a little bit over my 'cost per time' limit on DLs. Plus the time I actually tried to buy from their site I couldn't get it to work, for some reason.
Quote from: Albion on Saturday 26 November 2011, 10:42I am all in favour of 'cleaning up' recordings of this magnitude where mistakes would become tiresome and frustrating on repeated listening, but I think that editing ought to be openly acknowledged and credited in the literature accompanying the commercial release.
My copy of this splendid recording arrived today and it fully justifies the encomiums heaped upon it over at musicweb. The sound is fantastically detailed and possibly one of the best ever captured in the Royal Albert Hall and there has been some truly remarkable technical wizardry: gone is the disconcerting 'clunk' as, I think, a brass player dropped a mouthpiece towards the end of the Scherzo and, most magical of all, the intermittent choral pitch-problems have been sorted out to the point that Susan Gritton no longer has to perform her death-defying and audacious (but necessary) swoop up to pitch at the beginning of her entry taking over from the chorus in the
Judex. All the editing work has been done with the utmost finesse and nothing audible proclaims 'tampering' in the slightest.
This is now the benchmark recording of the work with the best orchestral playing and the finest vocal soloists and, despite the lack of acknowledgement of editorial intervention, I am more than grateful to have both the 'edited' version for repeated listening and the original broadcast for historical reference and personal remembrance of a truly wonderful concert.
;D
I have the impression that Brian's Gothic is the most discussed symphony. I wasn't there, so I don't share the memory of an unforgettable musical event, but listened to the broadcast with mixed feelings. But I'm still curious because so many members (and reviewers) praise the Gothic so highly. Maybe a strange question, but is Hyperion's double disc a welcome addition to my classical music collection?
If you haven't got the piece, Peter, you should add it....! (My copy's arrived too!!!)
Quote from: Albion on Wednesday 30 November 2011, 17:42
My copy of this splendid recording arrived today and it fully justifies the encomiums heaped upon it over at musicweb. The sound is fantastically detailed and possibly one of the best ever captured in the Royal Albert Hall and there has been some truly remarkable technical wizardry: gone is the disconcerting 'clunk' as, I think, a brass player dropped a mouthpiece towards the end of the Scherzo and, most magical of all, the intermittent choral pitch-problems have been sorted out to the point that Susan Gritton no longer has to perform her death-defying and audacious (but necessary) swoop up to pitch at the beginning of her entry taking over from the chorus in the Judex. All the editing work has been done with the utmost finesse and nothing audible proclaims 'tampering' in the slightest.
That's marvellous! Can't wait to hear it for myself. :)
Can you blame me for what I said on the other board?
One of the great musical experiences of my life.
I just hope it can be such an experience for others.
How can I be the only one to understand ??? ??
The recording blew me away. I've been fond of the Marco Polo recording since it came out (and what a milestone it was then), but this is a completely new level. Brian suffered for years from substandard recordings (anyone remember the Leicestershire Schools Symphony Orchestra or the Hull Youth Symphony Orchestra?), because that was all he could get, but this is something else.
On a slightly personal note, years ago (when I was 18, so in 1989), I wrote to John Drummond, controller of Radio 3, suggesting they should programme some Brian at the Proms. He replied with a pompous, horrible letter, including the lines "It fills me with horror than an 18-year-old should listen to Havergal Brian". No wonder teenagers are put off listening to classical music. Anyway, I'm sure he was turning in his grave to see my wish fulfilled...
Quote from: hattoff on Wednesday 30 November 2011, 21:21
Can you blame me for what I said on the other board?
One of the great musical experiences of my life.
I just hope it can be such an experience for others.
How can I be the only one to understand ??? ??
You're not alone, as this thread proves abundantly. I am
really glad the engineers did their job. This
Gothic will be the defintive one for a long time, I think (barring an unforeseen miracle - another great recording!)
Quote from: Jimfin on Wednesday 30 November 2011, 21:44
Anyway, I'm sure he was turning in his grave to see my wish fulfilled...
Long may he turn.
QuoteHe replied with a pompous, horrible letter, including the lines "It fills me with horror than an 18-year-old should listen to Havergal Brian". No wonder teenagers are put off listening to classical music. Anyway, I'm sure he was turning in his grave to see my wish fulfilled...
I'm afraid John Drummond, for all that he did a lot of good things at the BBC, could be horribly pompous and dismissive. He was, if truth be known, a bit of a bully!
I'm now listening to The Gothic for the third time in two days (phew!), and this is my first encounter with this massive work. I have to say that the recording is impressing. I can only imagine the challenges involved in recording this symphony in a live performance.
Morten
Quote from: M. Henriksen on Friday 09 December 2011, 18:08
I'm now listening to The Gothic for the third time in two days (phew!), and this is my first encounter with this massive work. I have to say that the recording is impressing. I can only imagine the challenges involved in recording this symphony in a live performance.
Morten
There's no rush, it took twenty years for me to understand the whole thing. I know you'll be quicker than that but take it easy.
I still hear wonderful new things forty years later. It's the greatest music for those who are patient.
I don't know if I'll be any quicker in the understanding of the music challenging as it is, but I find the recording impressive. We'll see in twenty years or so!
Morten
It's ironic really. If the symphony had been just 'part I' it'd probably linger in obscurity and probably have never been recorded...
But honestly, I *really* love the first three movements and would honestly be quite satisfied with work were it that. Part II, despite the reason for the pieces infamy, etc....I actually am not quite as taken by outside of a few highly enjoyable spots.
Quote from: TerraEpon on Friday 09 December 2011, 20:56
It's ironic really. If the symphony had been just 'part I' it'd probably linger in obscurity and probably have never been recorded...
But honestly, I *really* love the first three movements and would honestly be quite satisfied with work were it that. Part II, despite the reason for the pieces infamy, etc....I actually am not quite as taken by outside of a few highly enjoyable spots.
I tend to agree with you, but I have to say that being fortunate enough to be at the Proms performance this year (the second time I have heard it live) I did appreciate Part II much more than before.
I have said it before, Jeffrey, as you know ;D, but the minute or two from the point of that glorious C major, F sharp, D minor cadence at the end of the third movement-which alone never fails to have me tingling with excitement-to the massed choirs rising bathed in golden light..............
I don't think that I have ever actually GASPED aloud at a concert before ;D ;D ;D
Says the Bruckner fan. 8)
Quote from the new issue of that wonderful(not) magazine "The Gramophone":
"I'm glad I had an opportunity to experience this leviathan live but I'll remember it with mixed feelings. Certainly it gives one a greater appreciation of Mahler's Eighth-a minnow by comparison but indubitably the work of the greater genius. And it means, now that my generation has had 'our' Gothic at the Albert Hall....that it now doesn't need to be resuscitated for another 30 years or so. In fact, I can honestly say that I've never enjoyed a second-rate piece of music so much"
How can people write such rubbish ??? ??? And how dare the writer(a Sub-Editor of the magazine) suggest that that should be that for another 30 years thereby denying so many others the opportunity to experience a live performance of the work >:(
QuoteHow can people write such rubbish And how dare the write(a Sub-Editor of the magazine) suggest that that should be that for another 30 years thereby denying so many others to experience a live performance of the work
Agreed! This is a ridiculous proposition! Should we also wait another 80 years for another performance of Foulds' "World Requiem"? Both of these works are of a scale that we shouldn't expect annual performances, but several decades' wait seems rather extreme when they were met with such interest and excitement! And while they have their flaws, they are most emphatically NOT second-rate curiosities! Personally, I listen to Brian's "Gothic" far more often than Mahler's 8th, whatever I may think of their relative merits...
Given also that the Proms performance sold out within 12 hours of the opening of booking, how many others would have wished to have been present but were denied the opportunity either because they couldn't get a ticket or were unable to travel to London(or indeed to Brisbane a year ago).
The comment is so typically and offensively "London-centric" >:( >:(
Who wrote that stuff? A regular contributor?
Quote from: Tapiola on Wednesday 14 December 2011, 14:40
Who wrote that stuff? A regular contributor?
The sub-editor.
That little piece tells you all you need to know about the modern Gramophone, its shallowness and bias. Although I do have Gramophone on subscription, it's as much out of habit as anything else. If you want to return to the good old days of Gramophone, buy the International Record Review. Serious reviews from open-minded, knowledgeable reviewers who you can respect.
Quite so, Mark. And I consider your restraint admirable.
I don't have an objection to "shallowness" as such - although it is terribly sad that the magazine's readership want dumbed down editiorial content.
But I do hugely object to blinkered, prejudiced, smug.....yes, sheer offensive rubbish.
Like you I have the wretched thing on subscription simply because it is a source of information that I might otherwise miss (though having said that I can't recall any occasion in the last couple of years when I've read something in Gramophone and exclaimed 'Hey, I didn't know that'....which suggests that Gramophone is actually redundant to my needs).
I've sent them an e-mail explaining why I'm so dismayed to read drivel of this kind. Might be useful if others also did so. But I doubt if they'll take note.
Peter
Sadly, all that seems to make its way onto the shelves here is Gramophone and the BBC Music magazine, the latter even shallower. They recently described Stanford's cello concerto as "sturdy and Brahmsian", neither of which I think are accurate. But people persist with the old myths they have read elsewhere: the Stanford is 'Brahms and Water' and Brian was a naive megalomaniac. One would hope that music critics would actually listen to the music: if not, perhaps they are in the wrong job.
It seems that a number of us continue to buy the magazine purely on a subscription basis-that goes for me too ;D
It just simply is habit. I started buying it back in 1964 and, apart from a short break in the mid 1980's, have every issue stacked in boxes on top of my library shelves.
IRR is so, so much better but, presumably, 'Gramophone' continues to sell and the sad fact is that we are amongst those who continue to buy it. Breaking the habit of decades is not easy ;D
I stopped buying Gramophone when it was sold to Haymarket, there was an immediate drop in standards. The copies I have seen since do not warrant a change of mind.
There is no reason for you all to not boycott the rubbish and it's rubbish critics. Leave it for the people it's designed for, there's plenty of them :'(
From the Havergal Brian Society website:
The magnificent Proms performance of Brian's Gothic symphony (Two-disc set, Hyperion CDA67971/2) has entered the UK Specialist Classical Music Chart at number 16 within a week of its release. This is great news for the recording, which has also been nominated by Musicweb as its International CD of the Year as well as being nominated as its Recording of the Month... The recording also appears at no. 7 at the US-based ArkivMusic.com, and features as a top seller at MDT.
So much for the doltish comments from Gramophone!
The trouble is that so many of the critics will argue that this just demonstrates the fascination of the cultish, obsessives who continue to argue HB's cause :(
(Sorry, I am in an increasingly depressed state of mind tonight as I contemplate the future for the symphonic, orchestral music I have loved for half a century :()
I feel very positive about Brian, in the wake of: the Dutton releases of the 10th and 30th, etc, and the Cello Concerto; the Toccata releases; the release of the Boult Gothic, the dutton release of old broadcasts of Brian (admittedly not easy to listen to), the Brisbane and Proms Gothics and of course this Hyperion release. I think one of the worse things that happened to Brian was the Marco Polo promise of a full cycle stopped anyone else recording his music and then when they ground to a halt, it all looked very depressing. On the other hand, listening to the broadcasts from the 1970s, one hears the same kind of optimism way back then... But I'm sure that the Gothic performance and recording will have won a lot of new fans for Brian.
I feel the same as Jimfin. When you read the reviews and comments on the several Amazon sites, you see that people have been 'bitten by the Brian bug', as one of them put it, by hearing (parts of) the Gothic and even joined the HBS. When I learned the Gothic would be performed, my one hope was that it would help solidify Brian's reputation and gain him some new listeners. This has happened. Though many critics are still entrenched in their negativism, the audience reaction has been the complete opposite, and that - in the long run - is what counts. I have loved Brian's music since 1977, when I was 16, and joined the HBS in December 1982. I think 2011 marks the beginning of the second wave of the 'Brian Renaissance'. And now enthusiasts have their own means of communication and of disseminating information. I can't wait to see what 2012 will bring, the 40th anniversary of Brian's death. Havergal Brian hasn't gone and never will.
The problem remains the paucity of concert performances - apart from the magnificent Proms Gothic, of course. It has been the same for my own favourite unsung, Felix Draeseke: a plethora of recordings over the past decade or so, but hardly a significant concert performance to speak of. The cognoscenti have their recordings, but the wider world remains untouched and so the ignoramuses who peddle their critical wares in the press feel able to repeat their prejudices ad nauseam.
Yours pessimistically...
The HBS want to stage (a) concert(s) next year, featuring several symphonies. That would, perhaps, make people aware of the fact that Brian is more than 'just' The Gothic. Yours (guardedly) optimistically...
I broke the habit two years ago, changed to IRR, and haven't looked back. I miss The Gramophone like one misses a bad cold.
For me the trouble is that I've been reading it since September 1968. But I agree, IRR's the one to get.
Nick Barnard at MusicWeb is clearly one of the good guys...
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Dec11/Brian_Gothic_CDA679712.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Dec11/Brian_Gothic_CDA679712.htm)
Quote from: Alan Howe on Wednesday 21 December 2011, 22:46
Nick Barnard at MusicWeb is clearly one of the good guys...
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Dec11/Brian_Gothic_CDA679712.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Dec11/Brian_Gothic_CDA679712.htm)
Agreed......but did you note the last paragraph of his review ???
This contains a recent quote from our friend Andrew Clements of The Guardian. Clements is writing about Delius's 'Mass of Life' and he writes:
"Hardcore English-music enthusiasts are easy enough to spot. Male, conservatively dressed and middle-aged (you suspect most of them looked middle-aged when they were in their 20s), they invariably have an air of disappointment, as if the music they support so enthusiastically has never quite lived up to the expectations they load upon it."This is just about the most downright objectionable, offensive, patronizing, sneering comment that even this gentlemen has penned to date >:( >:( >:(
How in heaven (or earth) someone who, presumably, purports to love music can wish to so gratuitously insult, offend and denigrate other music-lovers is utterly beyond my comprehension :o :o
The carefully and very properly maintained civility which marks this forum exists between members and should be, as far as humanly possible, extended to others but really.......... :o :o
Andrew Clements is a case of English self-hatred.
Of course, Clements is quoted in order that his argument may be comprehensively refuted...
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Wednesday 14 December 2011, 15:47
That little piece tells you all you need to know about the modern Gramophone, its shallowness and bias. Although I do have Gramophone on subscription, it's as much out of habit as anything else. If you want to return to the good old days of Gramophone, buy the International Record Review. Serious reviews from open-minded, knowledgeable reviewers who you can respect.
Very much agree with you. I get the Gramophone on subscription but am invariably disappoined with it. I often prefer BBC Music which may be less 'high brow' but includes a complete work on the accompanying CD. Highlights have been live performances of Walton's 1st Symphony (Boult) and Vaughan Williams's 9th Symphony (A. Davis). I wish they's issue Moeran's Symphony and Bax's No 2 from recent prom performances.
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on Wednesday 21 December 2011, 23:51
Andrew Clements is a case of English self-hatred.
Clements is mocked by British musicians, and considered an idiot. For examples of the high esteem in which he is held, read this
http://www.r3ok.com/index.php/topic,1623.330.html
We are all, I think, straying far from Havergal Brian's Gothic Symphony in our criticisms of 'The Gramophone' magazine ;D....
....but, with your indulgence, I picked-at total random-an issue from my shelves. It happens to be the January 1977 edition. The contributors reviewing new LPs that month included-
Felix Aprahamiam, Denis Arnold, Mary Berry, Alan Blyth, William Chislett, Roger Fiske, Edward Greenfield, Max Harrison, Trevor Harvey, Robert Layton, William Mann, Ivan March, Malcolm Macdonald, Richard Osborne, Michael Oliver, Christopher Palmer, Stephen Plaistow, Stanley Sadie, Lionel Salter, John Steane, John Warrack, Stanley Webb.
These names will mean nothing to younger members or, possibly, those who never bought the magazine even then.....but these were names one could trust. These were critics of substance with a reputation which frequently extended beyond music criticism per se.
I agree 100%. These were certainly men one would pay to read - and learn from.
Since this seems to have mutated from the "Havergal Brian Gothic Symphony from Hyperion" forum to the "Ooo Those Awful Critics!" forum, I thought I'd throw in my two cents' worth.
Kenneth Tynan once wrote that criticism was not a science; it was, alas, an art. Is it possible to have great critics without great art? I'm fifty-six years old. Into my early adulthood, there lived great composers who were universally acknowledged as great composers during their lifetimes: Shostakovich, Britten, Copland, Messiaen (whom I was lucky enough to meet). Even Stravinsky made it through most of my adolescence. Who has that kind of career anymore? What composer's new work elicits headlines, apart from the scandalous or provocatively controversial kinds? Today's music critics don't live in that kind of atmosphere. All too often, their concept of greatness (if they have one) is our concept of mediocrity, because that's all they really know. Some reject the very idea of greatness as too "elitist" and concentrate on the invidious comparison of contemporary performances of acknowledged classics with earlier performances of acknowledged classics; some embrace elitism and concentrate on the obscure, the outrageous and the determinedly unpopular. In both cases, they're marginalizing themselves.
But why not? The arts are marginalized in the United States, certainly, and to some extent in Britain, from what I read. Musical education has have been excised from most of our schools. Many American cities have no classical radio stations. Most of our newspapers - those that are left - have slashed their arts coverage to the point where potentially first-rate critics have nowhere to go, except perhaps the internet, where everyone with an opinion is considered a critic. Classical music is - and let's face it, always has been - a minority taste. Contemporary capitalism can't accommodate minority tastes, so classical music is left to the enthusiasts and the opportunists. All too many critics today - and all too many composers, and all too many performers - are one or the other (or in rare cases, both). Why bother to be great?
All I would wish to add is that-as has been said before-there are still some excellent and trustworthy critics around and, in Britain, many of them are writing lengthy, well-informed and perceptive reviews for International Record Review. These include Martin Anderson, Piers Burton-Page, Robert Layton, Callum MacDonald, Robert Matthew-Walker...to name but a few.
It will be most interesting to read the review which will appear in IRR of the Gothic Symphony...presumably next month.
I always liked Trevor Harvey's reviews - was sad when he passed away.
With the Brabbins' Gothic blasting my apartment in full, glorious splendour....and Yes, I do think that the performance IS utterly magnificent ;D ;D....
.....I am reading, for the first time, the cd booklet notes by Calum(Malcolm) MacDonald.
You can imagine my joy at reading the quotation from Deryck Cooke in "The Penguin Book of Choral Music", my copy of which has been lost behind a virtually immovable bookcase for many years.
Cooke described Brian's Te Deum as "a dithyrambic paean of complex neo-medieval counterpoint like nothing else in music" that "reveals the mind of a truly visionary genius".
THAT was the very passage I read aloud to Malcolm 49 years ago as I recall in the quad. of our school in Edinburgh ;D ;D It was that very passage which sparked off his interest in a composer on whose music he is now the leading expert in the world.
So.........really, it is all MY doing ;D ;D
NO, seriously, I am simply delighted to see that passage, the precise wording of which I had long-forgotten, reproduced in the cd booklet.
It is a wonderful piece of music-no comparisons relevant ;D And the Brabbins performance glows on disc in fantastic sound quality. The BBC/Hyperion engineers have done a marvellous job in allowing us to hear the work in its full splendour.
For those of us lucky enough to have been present the visual spectacle was quite overwhelming. Perhaps, just perhaps, that slightly detracted from one's ability to focus sufficiently on the music itself and on the performance. I am not really qualified to make the sorts of detailed judgments on the performance and interpretation that others have made: the Boult, Schmidt, Lenard, Curro, Brabbins each and every one has much to be said for it in different ways. But, for me, that night Brabbins nailed it. And now I and others can listen again to the music in its full, glorious grandeur.
Mirabile dictu.
The Hyperion Gothic receives an excellent review by Richard Whitehouse in the January edition of IRR (pp 38-39). Without reproducing the whole assessment, here are some extracts -
July's performance at the Proms saw the work come through its customary brickbats with relative ease. Mocking is easy as a substitute for constructive criticism, so credit to Martyn Brabbins for overseeing a performance which emphatically did not play it safe: enabling the piece to be appreciated for a formal evolution as oblique and purposeful as is its emotional progression.
Various commentators have only partially succeeded in explaining the physiognomy of the Te Deum setting that constitutes the second half. Outwardly the most conventional of these later three movements, the fourth is equally the most difficult to make cohere. Brabbins succeeds like neither of the comparative versions in forging its overtly schematic alternation of praise and supplication into a cumulative sequence [...]
[...] this release looks set to be the primary recommendation well into the future: conveying the fullest extent yet of a flawed masterpiece that risks so much in staking out the listener's awareness of its greatness.
Richard Whitehouse was, like several members of this forum, present at the performance and accords Brian the respect of giving his mighty symphony one of the most detailed reviews (with myriad timing marks) that I've encountered even in IRR.
;D
I had just posted a similar enthusiastic recommendation of the Richard Whitehouse review on another website and was about to copy it on here but Albion has beaten me to it ;D
I can only echo what he says above and urge members to get hold of a copy of IRR-if they are not already subscribers to this quite excellent magazine :)
This is the sort of detailed critique so sadly and unforgiveably lacking in other publications where lazy critics write a paragraph(or maybe, just, two) of worthless prose which masquerades as serious criticism >:(
Albion has highlighted the two passages I particularly noticed: "Mocking is easy as as substitute for constructive criticism" and "a flawed masterpiece that risks so much in staking the listener's awareness of its greatness". That-I think-is fair, balanced writing which does Whitehouse great credit and in its detailed analysis of the piece reflects the value of an exceptionally fine musical publication.
The quotations show that the review must be very good indeed. I agree with the praise for the Te deum laudamamus - I think Brabbins has given it the best performance so far. And the same goes for the first two movements, in my opinion.
I have read somewhere that the IRR reviewers tend to 'gush' in their praise for particular recordings of works they clearly know well and love.
I see nothing wrong in the Editor of a serious music journal sending cds to reviewers they know are intimately familiar with or are likely to be empathetic to particular composers or their works. If I want to read a review of a relatively obscure composer or composition I want to know that the reviewer is somebody I can trust to give a balanced opinion regarding the merits of the work in question rather than someone who has a track record of hostility to the composer.
I don't tend to read reviews of works in which I have little interest. The persistence of another music magazine in sending cds of a particular composer to a certain critic(who, apparently, requests that he reviews those cds) and then persistently rubbishes the music strikes me as, to put it mildly, perverse in the extreme.
I agree with your point, Colin - it is perverse to let someone review a work he evidently dislikes, though antipathy can be educational, too. I hope there comes a day when Brian doesn't need any advocacy and we can 'simply' compare performances and discover ever more aspects of works we think we know. For instance - listening again to Myer Fredman's performance of Symphony No. 22 was a real 'ear-opener': he brings out the tenderness in an otherwise rather harsh and uncompromising piece.
It's a good point. On the other hand, when a British music (for example) enthusiast reviews a rarely-performed work, the temptation is surely great simply to rave about the work, rather than reviewing the performance objectively, as one would with a well-established piece. I get so tired too, of CD inserts which spend the first two pages giving a potted biography of the composer and the next in refuting all the nasty things said about them. I think every single CD I own of music by Brian or Stanford starts with "HB/CVS was born in Dublin/Dresden in 1852/1876 into a protestant Irish/working class family...." Who do they think buys these discs anyway? Goths trying out the Gothic?
Regarding your first point-the temptation "to rave about the work, rather than reviewing the performance objectively....": there may indeed be that temptation but that is what differentiates the good reviewer/critic from the 'fanatic'(if I may use that word ;D).
Richard Whitehouse in his review of The Gothic calls it "a flawed masterpiece". Now one may or may not agree with his use of the word "flawed" but as a qualification of the word "masterpiece" I would deem that to be an acceptable point of view and by no stretch of the imagination "raving" about the work.
I would regard myself as a "British music enthusiast"-albeit one totally unqualified to write a decent review of a work or a cd for any sort of publication ;D-but I am not, I hope, uncritical. If a substantial piece of British orchestral music is not to my taste, either because I find it too thorny or overly complex(as I do, for example, late Tippett or early Maxwell Davies, Richard Rodney Bennett) or, on the other hand, overly-romantic/dreamy(as I must admit I find Delius, York Bowen or Cyril Scott) I shall gladly admit to it :) :)
Absolutely agreed! I understand that CD inserts are a little different, as they are trying to sell the work. For example, Jeremy Dibble is a lot more complimentary about Parry's 'Job' in the CD insert than he is in his biography of Parry. And that's a work I can't listen to too often.
What makes a _really_ good review/good criticism, and not just a neutral or not actively bad one, is I think worthy of its own thought (though the thought I have given it myself is not at all original) and perhaps its own thread. :)
Quote from: Dundonnell on Friday 06 January 2012, 00:18
Richard Whitehouse in his review of The Gothic calls it "a flawed masterpiece". Now one may or may not agree with his use of the word "flawed" but as a qualification of the word "masterpiece" I would deem that to be an acceptable point of view and by no stretch of the imagination "raving" about the work.
As someone who knows all of Brian's symphonies, I have come to recognise the passages where Brian has to get from inspired idea A to inspired idea B. Sometimes he just uses a pause, Bruckner fashion, but more often there is a (short) linking passage, built on a rhythm, that gets him into the target tonality. These linking passages can have their own beauty, but sometimes they are rather mechanical. This happens in The Gothic, too, but to these ears only in the final movement, where after the opening tenor solo you have a few minutes of choral build-up with no real payoff. That's the only flaw I see in the whole of The Gothic. The rest is absolutely inspired.
I think almost any work can be called "flawed": TS Eliot called "Hamlet" "an artistic failure" and Vaughan Williams found weaknesses (I forget what) in Beethgoven's "Choral Symphony". What's important is how much good stuff there is, and in the Gothic there is an incredible amount that is, as you say, absolutely inspired. What amazes me is that it doesn't flag: I know a number of much shorter symphonies that feel like they go on longer. And the Brabbins recording makes that even clearer.
Quote from: Jimfin on Sunday 08 January 2012, 00:43
I think almost any work can be called "flawed": TS Eliot called "Hamlet" "an artistic failure" and Vaughan Williams found weaknesses (I forget what) in Beethgoven's "Choral Symphony". What's important is how much good stuff there is, and in the Gothic there is an incredible amount that is, as you say, absolutely inspired. What amazes me is that it doesn't flag: I know a number of much shorter symphonies that feel like they go on longer. And the Brabbins recording makes that even clearer.
Well said ;D :)
The February issue of The Gramophone magazine has a review of the Hyperion cd. The review is written by Guy Rickards and is enthusiastic. He makes the obvious point that the BBC should have filmed the performance.
However Rickards gets one column to review both the Hyperion discs and Volume 2 of the Toccata Brian releases. The consequence is that the Toccata disc gets precisely three sentences.
Rickards is a sensible reviewer and is notably well-informed about Scandinavian music but the length of his review gives him little opportunity to say much that is of any real value beyond comparing the speeds adopted by Boult, Lenard and Brabbins. Frankly, almost any of us could have written this review.
It is a waste of the man's talent and, yet another, commentary on the dreadful decline in the magazine's standards; a decline we have said much about already :(
I received my first copy of the IRR, four days after ordering it all the way from the UK to Japan, and am very impressed so far. Goodbye, Gramophone!
Quote from: Jimfin on Wednesday 11 January 2012, 13:43
I received my first copy of the IRR, four days after ordering it all the way from the UK to Japan, and am very impressed so far. Goodbye, Gramophone!
;D ;D
@ Colin Thanks for that. I share your sadness at the decline of what was once an excellent magazine. Still, Guy Rickards' enthusiasm could sway some doubters, which is a positive thing.
In my personal opinion, Brain's "Gothic" is one of the craziest Symphonies ever (in a positive sense only), but, in first place, a great work indeed, full of splendour, power and inspiration! I love it deeply since I first got to know it, in the 70s, on an dreadfully sounding pirate LP (was it the B. R. Cook version?).
I love, admire, respect and enthusiastically welcome all three available versions on CD, and hate making comparisons: all interpretations are absolutely excellent - and since I am a conductor myself, I feel able to re-enact in my mind what these great conductors intend and realise, especially in this case, since I am able to follow the music with a score in my hands. All those who nag, should try to do the same first and start knowing the piece from the staves it's written on.
As far as the CD artwork is concerned: that was - amusingly - all rather plumpish since that first pirate LP. The recent Naxos re-issue artwork is worse than the old one, but one can easily have to cope with a bad cover by getting such great music! ;)
Adriano
Zurich/Switzerland
Spot-on, Adriano! - both in your estimate of the work itself and in you appreciation for all the extant recordings. I cut my teeth on taped recordings of Boult and Schmidt, welcomed with open arms the splendid Lenard CDs and now have the wonderful Brabbins set to remember the RAH Prom by. I feel privileged...
Quite, to think what all those conductors, Boult, Lenard and Brabbins (and Bryan Fairfax for that matter) in being able to put together a convincing performance of such a mammoth work when there was so little to compare it to is an astonishing achievement, and I wouldn't belittle any of them. But the Brabbins did make me feel like I was listening to the work for the first time
The Brabbins is, for me at least, not simply a superb recording, but a momento of a wonderful event. That's what makes it special. However, if it hadn't taken place, I don't believe I would be significantly worse off as far as recorded versions are concerned. Not that I'm being ungrateful...
Wholeheartedly agree with Jimfin (and many others) that the achievements of Boult, Lenard and Brabbins in putting together a convincing performance of the Gothic was indeed astonishing - as their recordings testify.
But this isn't quite the full story. Having just landed myself a job at the Poly down the road (for what other reason would someone chose to live in Stoke-on-Trent?) I attended the performance in the Victoria Hall Hanley in May 1978. One can't measure grades of astonishment, but if anything that event transcended the astonishing enough Brabbins performance last summer. All the performers (who vastly outnumbered the audience on that precious Sunday) were amateurs. They were recruited from all over the Midlands and sometimes beyond. I believe there had been some sectional rehearsals in the previous week or two, but all forces only came together for the very first time on Saturday, the day before the performance. Importantly, apart from the BBC tapes of the 1966 Boult performance to which the conductor, Trevor Stokes, had access none of the performers would have had any clear idea of the sound or texture of this vast symphony which surely must strike a newcomer to it as almost mad. For those performing it in the Victoria Hall that Sunday there was thus no kind of benchmark against which to work. I perhaps made the mistake of sitting near the front of the hall and thus easily able to see the look of sheer bloody terror on the faces of some orchestral players.
Given all this there was a high probability that the performance would collapse into incoherence or just grind to a halt. But not so at all. Not knowing any of the musical 'geography' of the symphony I was bewildered by some parts of it. Nonetheless it was abundantly clear that this was a performance that held together remarkably well, and that (and more) was certainly the view of those (such as David Brown) who reviewed it.
Thus the sheer difficulty of organising the whole event and then giving a wonderfully coherent performance of the symphony somehow go beyond whatever it is that counts as 'astonishment'. Some 34 years later it is still hard to believe that this happened in Stoke-on-Trent. Funny old place: if you ask a man in the street about Arnold Bennett, let alone Havergal Brian, you get a blank look. Reginald Mitchell who designed the Spitfire, Captain Smith of the Titanic, and above all Stanley Matthews are the real heroes of the place and the city fathers have built them monuments to them. Ah, but if they only knew that what happened in the Victoria Hall that day was one of the most significant events in the history of the place - and its astonishing nature a very great and permanent tribute to all the many who gave us this performance.
A wonderful account of a seminal experience - thanks for posting it, Peter.
In 1978 I had probably not yet heard the off-air reel-to-reel recording of the Boult performance made by a friend of a friend, and I was certainly completely unaware of events in Stoke. So for me it was Boult (I eventually acquired a cassette transfer of the above-mentioned recording), followed by Schmidt (whose performance I attempted to record live on cassette only to find that radio reception hereabouts deteriorated as it went along) who introduced me to the work. And then finally Lenard came along in impressive sound and I was as happy as Larry (who?). But I hadn't attended an actual performance until last summer, which is why Brabbins will always be special, but not essential, for me...
People in Stoke don't know Arnold Bennett? How odd, since he mostly wrote about the area and is generally known in the UK! Still, I personally think Havergal Brian was a thousand times more talented than Bennett (and for that matter, rather more successful than the Captain of the Titanic!)
Hm, I suppose it is true that inhabitants of the Potteries (sometimes known colloquially as 'potties') might have heard of Bennett - but they don't read him in spite of many of his novels being based in and around Stoke. Bennett's birthplace was for a number of years a greasy cafe, and then pulled down. The main Bennett house about a mile north of Hanley (in Cobridge) is a desolate place. Likewise the Brian house in Dresden (closer to Longton to the south of the city) is unmarked and uncommemorated. Both Bennett and Brian got out of the place at the earliest opportunity. At an earlier time Stoke was illustrious - largely on account of the choral works performed in the Victoria Hall. Elgar's King Olaf was first performed there in 1896. Later, Gerontius was heard in Hanley (and elsewhere) before London. In one of his letters Elgar remarks to a friend that he was about to go up again to his "beloved Victoria Hall" for a performance of one of his works (haven't checked but I believe I recall correctly that the First Symphony was performed there in 1908 - by Richter and the Halle - 3 days after its first Manchester performance and before being played in London). So Brian, though of humble origins, was born into a musically active environment. Lack of employment and very limited opportunities caused him to move to London from Stoke in 1912, and like Bennett, he never looked backwards.
After WW1 Stoke became a dreary place in which, judging by photographs, one could hardly see across the road for the smoke belching from the pottery kilns. I was especially dismayed - round about the early 1980s - when I got myself on a committee organising the music festival. We actually got the promise of the Beethoven Vn Conc from no less than Menuhin and the RPO - but were then refused the use of the Victoria Hall on that night because it coincided with the regular weekly wrestling match. Heaven help Stoke had Brian been around at the time! Like both Bennett and Brian I got out - though it took me much longer to do so.
Not so sure that Brian was "a thousand times more talented" than Bennett. The latter's 'Old Wives Tale' I consider one of the great 20th English novels....but if I pursue that theme I'll have Alan slapping me across the wrist!
Sorry, I had to study "The Old Wives' Tale" for O Level, which resulted in me now reading Arnold Bennett about as much as people in Stoke. Yes the Hanley premiere of "King Olaf" was where Brian decided to become a composer and that "Elgar was the man for me". I can just imagine the scene.
Many thanks to Peter for his story. Wish I had been there! I read David Brown's account of the event in the Newsletter only in the early 1980s, when I became a member of the HBS. There is a photo of the concert in the book the HBS published with two studies of The Gothic (by Paul Rapoport and Harold Truscott). I think I'll send David a link to your post!
I think it's a little unfair to say that Brian was more talented than Bennett. One isn't really comparing like with like. I enjoy the music of the one and the literature of the other.
You are right, Gareth. The comparison is pretty invidious, I'd've thought.
Probably entirely my fault for mentioning Arnold Bennett in the first place! Any comparison is clearly invidious, but to link Bennett and Brian isn't entirely lunatic. Both were born in the Potteries, both came from fairly humble families, and each became infused by currents of thought whose origin and influence lay way outside the parochial nature of Potteries customs and traditions. Both men then forged ambitions that could not possibly flourish in the place of their birth, and to turn their backs on Stoke.
If I propose that between Bennett and Brian we have a great writer and a great composer then maybe all disagreements will cease. And if, in addition, I venture the proposal that Bennett and Brian each made a permanent and more significant mark on our culture than did Captain Smith and Stanley Matthews we shall all be one in the celebration of the former pair!
However I'm not going to give up entirely! There is obviously a lot of the Potteries in the Bennett novels. Many of the books are set in the five towns that now make up the city, and in them we encounter real flesh and blood characters who once you would have met in the pot banks, pubs, and streets of the place. And having been sentenced to live in or near the Potteries for 34 years in order to earn my crust of bread until, gloriously, I got out of it, and having thus developed a familiarity with the culture of the place, I often hear elements of the Potteries in Brian's music. I'm thinking of a certain gruffness, a ruggedness and independence of thought, a jocularity of humour occasionally breaking into a swaggering jollity or else a grim resolute despair, a determination to be his own man and to say what he likes regardless of others, an insistence on his own forms of expression, sometimes immense energy and powers of endurance, a disdain for mere prettiness, a sometimes ruthless bluntness and honesty..... Notoriously difficult to capture in words what we might feel about a piece of music, but aren't these some of the elements that we find in Brian's music? Become acquainted with Stoke and you'll recognise all such elements in Potteries culture and history - however of course in recent years with the collapse of the pottery industry, and mile upon mile of near derelict factories and pot banks, all this traditional culture has disappeared.
In one of his novels (I forgot which) Arnold Bennett has a character, a composer, based on Havergal Brian. I must have read this in Ordeal by Music / Havergal Brian - the man and his music by Reginald Nettel, a Potteries man himself.
A new review on Musicweb by Dan Morgan... Just scroll down a bit.
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/Jan12/DL_roundup_Jan12_2.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/Jan12/DL_roundup_Jan12_2.htm)
..and how gratifying to read this in DM's review:
One of the joys of reviewing is the chance to revisit and re-evaluate works that, for one reason or another, have failed to gel first time round. Suk's Asrael eluded me until I heard the recent BIS recording, but as compelling as that is I had to admit it was not a Damascene conversion. This performance of 'The Gothic' most certainly is.
Excellent review :)
I have complimented Dan Morgan on his review (by tweet). He replied: You are most welcome. 'The Gothic' will be one of my picks for 2012, I'm sure.
The French monthly magazine "Classica" (march 2012 release, pages 80-81) has elected the Hyperion recording of Brian's Gothic Sym. "recording of the month" (the long and fully enthusiastic review is written by Michel Fleury, I would say prominent among French critics).
That is very interesting :)
I had often thought that the French were immune to a lot of British music ;D
I was just thinking the same, and how lovely it was that they should have taken such an interest here.
Perhaps Brian's music isn't so quintessentially English...?
Brian Reinhart's enthusiastic and detailed Musicweb review - http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/Feb12/Brian_Gothic_CDA679712.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/Feb12/Brian_Gothic_CDA679712.htm)
:)
By far the best assessment and review I have read...
Quote from: Alan Howe on Monday 27 February 2012, 22:21
By far the best assessment and review I have read...
Yes....and written by an American postgraduate student in his early 20s who was studying in London for a year and who attended the performance of the Gothic shortly before returning to Texas.
Now doesn't that put professional music critics to shame ::)
Quote from: Alan Howe on Saturday 25 February 2012, 18:01
Perhaps Brian's music isn't so quintessentially English...?
It isn't. It is universal. It has an English inflection, though, just as Schubert and Bruckner have an Austrian one.