Unsung Composers

Again, by popular request...

Albert Hermann Dietrich (28 August 1829 – 20 November 1908), was a German composer and conductor, remembered less for his own achievements than for his friendship with Johannes Brahms.
Dietrich was born at Golk, near Meissen. From 1851 he studied composition with Robert Schumann in Düsseldorf, where in October 1853 he first met Brahms and collaborated with Schumann and Brahms on the 'F-A-E' Sonata for Joseph Joachim (Dietrich composed the substantial first movement). From 1861 until 1890 he was the musical director at the court of Oldenburg, where Brahms often visited him and where he introduced many of Brahms's works. It was in Dietrich's library that Brahms discovered the volume of poetry by Hölderlin that furnished him with the text for his Schicksalslied, which he began composing while visiting Wilhelmshaven dockyard in Dietrich's company. Dietrich was also instrumental in arranging for the premiere of Brahms's Ein deutsches Requiem at Bremen in 1868. Dietrich's own works include an opera Robin Hood, a Symphony in D minor (1869, dedicated to Brahms), a Violin Concerto in the same key (composed for Joseph Joachim but premiered in 1874 by Johann Lauterbach), a Cello Concerto, a concertante piece for horn, choral works and several chamber compositions including two piano trios.
Dietrich's Recollections of Brahms, published in Leipzig in 1898, was translated into English the following year and remains an important biographical source. The Brahms scholar David Brodbeck has theorized (The Cambridge Companion to Brahms, 1999) that Dietrich is the most likely author of the anonymous Piano Trio in A major, discovered in 1924, which some scholars have attributed to Brahms; but Malcolm MacDonald (Brahms, 2nd ed, 2001) has maintained that, if any specific composer is to be sought for this work, Brahms remains the more likely candidate on balance of stylistic probabilities.
Albert Dietrich died in Berlin. One of his students was Ernst Eduard Taubert.

Piano Solo

Vier Klavierstücke, Op. 2
Sechs Klavierstücke, Op. 6

Piano, Four hands

Sonata in G Major for Piano, Four hands, Op. 19

Chamber music

Allegro for Violin and Piano (1st movement of F-A-E Sonata)
Cello Sonata in C, Op. 15
Intermezzo for Cello and Piano, Op. 116/4
Piano Trio #1 in C Minor, Op. 9
Piano Trio #2 in A, Op. 14

Orchestral

Symphony in D Minor, Op. 20
Violin Concerto in D Minor, Op. 30
Cello Concerto in G Minor, Op. 32
Introduction and Romance for Horn and Orchestra, Op. 27
Normannenfahrt, Op. 26
Overture in C Major for Orchestra, Op. 35
Cymbeline, Op. 38 (incidental music)

Opera

Robin Hood, Op. 34 (New production at Theater Erfurt - premiere: March 20th, 2011)
Das Sonntagskind
Die Braut vom Liebenstein
Charles d'Anjou

Choral Music

Morgenhymne 'Phöbos Apollon, seliger Gott' aus 'Elektra' von Hermann Allmers, Op. 24
Altchristlicher Bittgesang, Op. 25
Rheinmorgen, Op. 31
Weihnachtslied, Op. 37

Lieder

Widmung, Op. 1/1
Nachtlied, Op. 1/2
All'weil giebt es kein grössere Lust, Op. 1/3
Die alte Linde, Op. 1/4
Liederfrühling, Op. 1/5
Frühlings-Aufruf, Op. 1/6
Tröstung, Op. 1/7
Die Trauerweide, Op. 1/8
"Kein Leid ist grösser als Herzeleid", Op. 1/9
Ade, Op. 1/10
Ritter Frühling, Op. 3/1
Früh Morgens, Op. 3/2
Im April, Op. 3/3
Hinab von den Bergen, Op. 3/4
Erwachen, Op. 3/5
Des Müden Abendlied, Op. 3/6
Frühlingsandacht, Op. 4/1
Du weisst es nicht, Op. 4/2
Ständchen, Op. 4/3
Der Liebe Lust und Leid, Op. 4/4
Liebeslenz, Op. 4/5
Du fragst warum, Op. 4/6
Ueberall Liebchen, Op. 4/7
Vom Pagen und der Königstochter, Op. 5
Unter dem Schatten, Op. 7/1
Mein Liebchen naht, Op. 7/2
Murmelndes Lüftchen, Op. 7/3
Abschied, Op. 7/4
Wenn du zu den Blumen gehst, Op. 7/5
Es regnet, Op. 8/1
Wie hat die Nacht so weh gethan, Op. 8/2
Zauberkreis, Op. 8/3
Wenn sich zwei Herzen recht verstehen, Op. 8/4
Schneeglöckchen, Op. 8/5
An den Abendstern, Op. 8/6
Mit dem blauen Federhute, Op. 10/1
Ob sie meiner noch gedenket, Op. 10/2
Ein Heil kamst du gezogen, Op. 10/3
Hoch um die Bergeskuppen, Op. 10/4
Still weht die Nacht, Op. 10/5
Der Storch ist längst hinunter, Op. 10/6
Einzug, Op. 11/1
Frühling, Op. 11/2
An die Nacht, Op. 11/3
Das Mädchen spricht, Op. 11/4
Sommer, Op. 11/5
Zauberbann, Op. 11/6
März, Op. 12/1
Frühling über's Jahr, Op. 12/2
War schöner als der schönste Tag, Op. 12/3
Dämmerung senkte sich von oben, Op. 12/4
Im Sommer, Op. 12/5
Fern, ach fern, Op. 13/1
Will ruhen unter den Bäumen hier, Op. 13/2
Glocken zur See, Op. 13/3
Gute Nacht, Op. 13/4
Treulieb' ist nimmer weit, Op. 13/5
Ach, wie weh tuth Scheiden, Op. 13/6
Dein Auge, Op. 16/1
Ja oder Nein, Op. 16/2
Meine Linde, Op. 16/3
Frühlingabend, Op. 16/4
Um Mitternacht, Op. 16/5
Wenn ich ihn nur habe, Op. 16/6
An meiner Thüre du blühender Zweig, Op. 33/1
Immer schaust du in die Ferne, Op. 33/2
Unter blühenden Bäumen, Op. 33/3
Es führen die Elfen den den Reigen, Op. 33/4
Ueber Liebchens Dache, Op. 33/5
Seefahrers Heimweh, Op. 33/6
Es sollte der letzte Tag ja sein, Op. 36/1
Waldruhe, Op. 36/2
O, sei mir hold, du segnender Augenstrahl, Op. 36/3
Nun ist ein jeder Nerv in mir, Op. 36/4
Maria, Mutter der Gnaden, Op. 39/1
Schlaftrunken wallen die Bäche, Op. 39/2
Die Amsel ist's, die so heimlich singt, Op. 39/3
Nun ist die Nacht vergangen, Op. 39/4
In dein abgrundtiefes Auge blickt ich, Op. 39/5
Mein bist du, mein, Op. 39/6

The major works that have been recorded in recent years are the two concertos and the symphony. The Symphony in D minor is an impressive work situated stylistically somewhere between Schumann and Brahms - which is probably what one would expect! The VC is a simply gorgeous piece which violinists should be queuing up to perform.

Quote from: Alan Howe on Sunday 23 October 2011, 09:42
...The VC is a simply gorgeous piece which violinists should be queuing up to perform.

I agree. It's neglect is pathetic!

Most enjoyable is also some of his recorded chamber music. I can strongly recommend his Piano Trio No. 1 in C minor, op. 9 (on Christophorus) and the beautiful Sonata for Cello and Piano in C major, op. 15 (on Audite). His great Sonata for Piano four hands in G major, op. 19, is available on the Globe label. I don't believe his style is very much of his own, but who cares? It gives you much listening pleasure.

Overture Normannenfahrt (1872)

Normannenfahrt  is roughly translated as "Ride of the Normans". (However, I'm sure our German experts will provide a more accurate meaning.)

After a little research I could not find an exact legend/myth which inspired this work. I wonder if it might be connected with the mythical journey of St Brendan across the Atlantic? Who knows?

The overture is about 12 minutes long and provides a hefty workout for the string section. It's powerful stuff!

See what you make of it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfCoycBfEeU

The basic sense of 'Fahrt' is 'trip', 'journey', etc., so, for example, visitors to Germany travelling along motorways will often come across signs for an 'Ausfahrt', i.e. an 'out-journey' or 'exit'. The associated verb 'fahren' simply means 'to go', usually employing some means of transport. The sense of 'Normannenfahrt' must, therefore, be 'Journey of the Normans'.

Thanks for the rendition - it really is a splendidly exciting piece - in a conservative idiom, for sure, but none the worse for that. It certainly reminds me of the stormy sections of the D minor Symphony.

The word "Fahrt" (also the verb "fahren") has changed its meaning a bit since the 19th century.  Nowadays it usually means: to move in or on some vehicle, be it a boat or ship, a car, a train or a bicycle / motorbike (in Switzerland even on skis).

In the 19th century however, it meant "voyage" or "journey", even a pilgrimage, including travel on foot.  It was a major undertaking; a trip downtown to work would not have been a "Fahrt".  And it did not specify the means of transportation:  The "fahrende Geselle" would generally travel on foot or hitch a ride if he could.

i.e. more or less what I said - hence 'Journey of the Normans' - or perhaps 'Voyage...' if boat was the means of transport involved. 'Normannen', by the way, may also be translated 'Norsemen'.

The reference to a 'fahrender Geselle', though accurate, is surely irrelevant in this context - I don't think these Normans/Norsemen were 'wayfaring'! They were either on a long journey or, maybe, even engaged in a raid or invasion.

A pilgrimage would be a 'Pilgerfahrt' or 'Wallfahrt' (or 'Pilgerreise').

It may be significant that two years before in 1870 Max Bruch had composed a piece for baritone, male chorus and orchestra called 'Normannenzug' (lit. 'Procession [Raid?] of the Normans/Norsemen' - translated 'Lay [=Song] of the Normans/Norsemen'), a setting of a ballad by the poet/novelist, Joseph Victor von Scheffel (1826-1886). See the following:

The original German text is excerpted from the ninth chapter (entitled "Die Waldfrau") of Joseph Victor von Scheffel's (1826-1886) historical romance Ekkehard: A Tale of the Tenth Century (1857). This novel is based on the life of Ekkehard I (d. 973), Dean of the Abbey of St. Gall (Fürstabtei St. Gallen). As a member of the Benedictine order, Ekkehard was of noble birth, made a pilgrimage to Rome to receive relics of St. John the Baptist from Pope John XII, and was distinguished as a poet (his Latin epic Waltharius and ecclesiastical hymns and sequences were well-known in the medieval period). Robert White provided an English adaptation for twentieth-century reprints of the work.
    By the ninth chapter of Ekkehard, the title character is journeying through the forests of Schwabia in late November. He decides to seek out the elderly Woman of the Wood after a discussion of witchcraft. She recalls Friduhelm, a sweetheart of her youth, who was kidnapped and became a Scandinavian pirate. She hums "an old Norseman's song which he had once taught her," ("Die traurige Jahreszeit gemahnte sie an ein altes Nordmännerlied, das er sie einst gelehrt; das summte sie jetzt vor sich hin:") printed in rhyming verse.
https://repertoire-explorer.musikmph.de/wp-content/uploads/vorworte_prefaces/1381.html (https://repertoire-explorer.musikmph.de/wp-content/uploads/vorworte_prefaces/1381.html)

Here's a translation of von Scheffel's ballad:

Song (or Lay) of the Norsemen

Evening comes and the autumn breeze blows,
Cold frost spins around the fir trees,
O Cross and Book and monk's prayer –
We must all depart.
Our house grows dim and dark and old,
The holy wellsprings therein are bleak;
You who are watched over by the gods, you green forest,
The axe is already flashing to fell you!
And we fall silent, a defeated army,
Our stars are extinguished,
O Iceland, icy rock in the sea,
Rise up on the horizon!
Rise up and receive our race,
On sharp-beaked ships come
The old gods, the old law,
The old Norsemen returning.
Where Hecla glows, glowing ash falls,
Storm waves foam the shores:
On you, O desolate end of the world,
We will dream away the winter's night!

Johann Abert's opera 'Ekkehard' (1878) is of course also based on von Scheffel's novel. Maybe Dietrich's fine concert overture was inspired by this ballad...

I assume Schreker's overture is inspired by this poem also. (And I see there are not one or zero but two recordings of the Abert opera, a work unknown to me before (though I'd at least some familiarity with two of his symphonies), both on Capriccio.) Thanks :)
As to Dietrich's Robin Hood, premiered in 1879 but composed no later than 1876, I know of no recordings of the whole thing, though I wouldn't be surprised if individual excerpts had been. (There's a video on YouTube announcing a 2011 performance of the Dietrich opera.)

Quotenot one or zero but two recordings of the Abert opera [ ... ] both on Capriccio

It's the same recording (starring Jonas Kaufmann, no less), reissued with an updated cover, I think.

100% correct, Mark.

In the 1860 and 1870s there was great interest in Norse and Germanic mythology, both inspired by Wagner and political events. We see the Frithjof saga, another journey-based viking story, crop up in multiple works around the same time. Therefore, the timing of this overture, one year after German unification, doesn't seem coincidental.

Thanks for the informative responses. The cover to the score (if I'd bothered to look at it properly) supports the Norse / von Scheffel connection

Thanks to Alan for the translation. I shall amend the description accordingly and credit you if that's okay.

(https://i9.ytimg.com/vi/HfCoycBfEeU/mqdefault.jpg?sqp=CPDgjvoF&rs=AOn4CLBQDH4WAP2Yyi_MF5QQwEnhOxxClQ)

That's fine, of course!

Overture in C Major for Orchestra, Op. 35  (1882)

LINK: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAXNYBiX8C4&t=568s

Thanks once again, Martin. This is late-ish Dietrich and shows what a powerful composer he remained. A really wonderful discovery.

Won't the Violin concerto benefit from another fresh recording. I absolutely love the piece.

I agree 100%. Another recording (there have been two, I think) would be most welcome.

Which is the other one? I only know of the CPO version.

There was one on Koch Schwann, coupled with the Notturno for violin and orchestra by Joachim.

Yes, the earlier release featured Hans Maile in a rather swifter performance with purer legato; however, the slower cpo performance makes the piece sound rather 'bigger'and certainly more passionate.

It's a wonderful piece, fully the equal of, say, Bruch's VC1. As has been said, it could really do with another recording.

The following CD is apparently to be released by Naxos in late July: Naxos 8.574507 - Dietrich symphony, violin concerto and overture in C (https://naxosdirect.co.uk/items/albert-dietrich-symphony-in-d-minor-violin-concerto-overture-in-c-major-610495) (confirmed by Presto Classical), with Christoph König conducting the "Solistes Européens Luxembourg" (?) and violinist Klaidi Sahatçi.

Thanks very much for this news, Eric. Fascinating.

Looking forward to hearing the symphony. A great recording of it exists on CPO.

Both works are on the cpo disk, and the violin concerto was recorded on a Koch Schwann LP (later CD) 40 years ago (wait, ... yes, I was alive then, too.) The overture in C _may_ be new to recording? But I'm guessing it's neat to have new recordings of the first two works- it's not like they're over-recorded.

Considering that we know these forces from Farrenc's symphonies, it is to be expected that their interpretation of this piece will be backward- rather than forward-looking. Which should provide some contrast with the existing recording by the Oldenburgers under Rumpf.

Let's hope it won't be too HIP-influenced to be enjoyable. After all, this is post-Schumann and 'on the way' to Brahms.

It isn't that far post-Schumann, though (1869-70), and I always find terms such as "pre-echoes" or "on the way" problematic since they suggest knowledge of future developments that the composer obviously could never have. A somewhat leaner performance than the one we have would be interesting from that perspective, and I'm guessing that's what we're going to get. Moreover, since we have a fairly decent first recording I would have no issues with a variation of approaches in subsequent recordings. In the case of Dietrich, however, we know the musical language and performance preferences of his and Brahms' circle (including Gernsheim, Fuchs, Scholz, Herzogenberg et al.) quite well and this should - in my view at least - curtail the urge to make the work sound much earlier than mid-Brahms.

You may well be right, Ilja. I'll certainly be buying this anyway - and the violin soloist sounds really fine from the various excerpts available on YouTube. Speaking purely personally, I like lean and muscular Schumann and Brahms, but not scrawny and small-scale. Just saying...

Rumpf's recording on cpo is pretty standard stuff (well done, though), so there's certainly room for a more muscular alternative.

According to their respective websites, the orchestra on the forthcoming release is approx. 60-strong whereas the orchestra on the cpo release is 70-strong, so the major difference will surely be to do with matters such as string vibrato, tempo and general articulation. Muscularity shouldn't be an issue - however, listening to excerpts of the Luxembourg orchestra's Farrenc symphonies, some of the tempi chosen make for less clear articulation than is ideal.

Presto now has the timings for the Naxos release. Here's a comparison with the cpo recording of the Symphony:

  Naxos             cpo

I   13:16          13:07
II    9:10            9:11
III   9:45          10:21
IV 10:16          10:49
TT 42:27         43:32

Not a great deal of difference between the two...

Does anyone have timings for both of the older commercial recordings of the violin concerto, the better to compare both of them with the new one :) ? (Edit: According to Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/Dietrich-Variations-Accompanied-Radio-Symphonie-Orchester-Lopez-Cobos/dp/B00K97IBTQ), the Koch recording had total length 32:07, but the label didn't subdivide. Still, that information may be available elsewhere. Presto gives 34:02 for the cpo recording, divided as: Allegro 14:41, Adagio espressivo 10:33, Allegro molto vivace 8:48. And the new recording, indeed, is 31:48 divided as 14:08/8:45/8:55 - rather briefer in the Adagio. Will see if I can find out anything about the 1982 Koch recording.)

Ah. The Koch was, I'm reminded, reissued on CD. And also, a Discogs entry for the original LP (https://www.discogs.com/release/13025580-Albert-Dietrich-2-Joseph-Joachim-Hans-Maile-Radio-Symphonie-Orchester-Berlin-Dietrich-Joachim), has 31:15 (not 32:07) divided into 13:25 / 10:04 / 7:40 for the three movements/sections of the concerto. cpo is longest in the first movement, followed by the new Naxos, followed by Maile/Lopez-Cobos speediest (if complete) on Koch; in the second movement cpo is again longest, followed by Maile on Koch, followed by the upcoming recording; in the finale, the new recording seems to be slowest at 8:55, followed by cpo at 8:48, followed by a speedy (assuming not cut?) Maile at 7:40.

I'm less bothered about the VC provided that the soloist doesn't go full HIP and forego all use of vibrato. Maile, by the way, is the superior soloist - so far! However, I've always liked the extra time taken by Kufferath in the first two movements. To have a third recording will be luxury indeed, although given that this is, in my opinion, Dietrich's most fully realised large-scale orchestral work, the fact that it hasn't been more frequently recorded (or even performed) is a scandal. It would make a great coupling for any of the more famous VCs - or, perhaps, for the Goldmark or Raff's VC1.

The Kufferath/CPO has a more natural balance between soloist and orchestra, so it's the one I always return to. The engineers in the Koch placed Maile in an exaggerated perspective. 

I agree with Alan that this is one of the great Romantic concertos.  It needs no apologies, no special pleading.  That it has been ignored for so long is perplexing.  But then Bruch 3 is also ignored, so why am I surprised?   

Excerpts are now available at Presto:
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9631207--albert-dietrich-symphony-in-d-minor-violin-concerto-overture-in-c-major

...and I'm not sure I like everything I hear. The opening of the VC sounds rather sluggish to me and the strings don't come across very well (maybe because I've been used to the fuller sounds on Koch and cpo). However, as I suspected, the violinist sounds very fine indeed. The symphony has some excitingly recorded timpani, but again the strings don't really 'dig in' as a larger orchestra would - and they're not good in the scherzo either.

I'll be buying this for the VC, but I think it's a missed opportunity as the Symphony's just not as well done as on cpo. If you don't know the music, I'd stick with the excellent cpo recordings.

I have the Rumpf CPO recordings of the Dietrich symphony and violin concerto and have been listening to them again this week. I seem to be transported to the Viennese world of Johann Strauss on three occasions, something I've not experienced in a symphony or concerto before - in the symphony, the second trio of the scherzo and the theme beginning at around 35 minutes 20 in the finale; also the concerto finale at letter E. The symphony predates all of the Strauss operettas, while the concerto is contemporary with Die Fledermaus. Did Dietrich and Strauss meet or know each other's music? Unlikely perhaps. Any ideas welcome!

I don't know - I'd never spotted these similarities. Has anyone else noticed them, I wonder? I'm reminded of possibly comparable similarities between elements in the scherzo of Rufinatscha's 5th (formerly 6th) Symphony and, say, Strauss (Johann II).

Just a quick 'heads up' Folks (and apologies if this content is a 'duplicate' of any earlier post which I've I missed) but Presto are showing a NAXOS release of Dietrich's works due out Friday 26th July. Although the symphony and violin concerto are not new, it does contain an Overture in C major which I do not believe HAS been previously released.

Cheers

Richard

Thanks, Richard. I've merged your post with the existing thread on this topic for your interest.

I have always thought Dietrich's Violin concerto was an unsung masterpiece. Pity he didn't write more orchestral pieces other than the scant few left to us. Are there any Dietrich manuscripts lost or missing as of now?

Does anyone remember what was what with the RISM listing of a C major symphony (maybe incomplete) in manuscript by Dietrich? Also, if you include works with orchestra, there's his concertpiece for chorus and orchestra "Rheinmorgen" Op.31 of which I don't know of any recordings. (And one for horn and orchestra which I -think- has been recorded but I have to double-check - RISM lists a manuscript copy of that work at Detmold.)

Didn't we decide that the C major work was probably a misattribution?

Quote from: Alan Howe on Thursday 18 July 2024, 10:31Didn't we decide that the C major work was probably a misattribution?

We did, in an other post, last January. Well, it was my opinion, and Double-A's as well...

Well, he may not have written very many purely orchestral works (there aren't that few, actually), but point remains, he wrote several unrecorded works with chorus and orchestra all the same...

The new Naxos CD is a fine addition to the catalogue, with a 'middleweight' orchestra playing well under conductor Christoph König (I count 45 players in the photo on the back of the rather flimsy liner notes).
  I noted from the excerpts available online that the timps (and bass line in general) are particularly well defined, but I still have the feeling that the Symphony benefits from the richer sonority of the Oldenburg State Orchestra on cpo. Interestingly, the German notes are rather fuller than the English and state that it isn't difficult to hear the influence of the first movement of Dietrich's symphony upon Brahms' 1st. Maybe this new recording, with Naxos' famed wide distribution, will finally bring the work to a wider audience.

Incidentally, jpc are selling off their 2-CD set containing the Symphony and Violin Concerto (plus the Introduction and Romance for Horn and Orchestra, Op.27) for EUR 7.99, which is a terrific bargain. Buy it before it disappears!
https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/Albert-Dietrich-1829-1908-Symphonie-d-moll-op-20/hnum/1448906

The Overture in C major, published in 1882, is quite a heavyweight piece, extremely well done on this new Naxos CD. Of course, our friend Reverie, had already alerted us to its quality. 

Having sampled this new recording on YouTube I shan't be duplicating the cpo recording of the Symphony or Violin Concerto but the Overture is a welcome bonus. At under nine minutes this upbeat work is impressive and an object lesson: a composer with strong material maximising it's impact by resisting the urge to pad it out.  Contrast that with the way Erdmannsdörfer fatally diluted his Prinzessin Ilse Overture, as demonstrated by Reverie's drastic (but successful) surgery.

I'm hoping the Violin Concerto will be the 'star turn' of the CD. More anon...

Having now listened to the album, I hope I'm forgiven for voicing some slight disagreement with the consensus here thus far. For me, the König recording of the symphony is an interesting addition to the existing one under Rumpf, and the comparison doesn't end up in favour of the latter on all counts. König's tempi, but also the leaner orchestra and the somewhat more spacious recording, gives it a greater urgency than the older cpo recording. 
Because of Rumpf's larger forces and because it seems to have been much more closely miked, that recording therefore sounds more dense, which I'm not sure is all that fitting for a work from 1869. Rather, the soundscape is more late Brahms. This is particularly noticeable in the first movement. Having listened to König's scherzo, Rumpf also sounds a bit plodding, and the overall feel is less energetic. 
In the latter's favor, is a superior orchestra, but in hindsight I would argue that König comes closer to what Dietrich himself would have heard at the premiere (the Oldenburg Theatre orchestra was a smallish one, after all). To be sure, these are not huge differences, and the case for duplication is perhaps not very strong. But for those making their first purchase the choice is not all that obvious to me.

I'm glad I bought the Naxos CD. The performance of the Symphony is sufficiently different from that on cpo to make comparisons interesting and worthwhile. However, I have always felt that the work is poised deliciously between Schumann and Brahms and that a greater weight of utterance actually suits the music - but this is a matter of personal preference. (I am not always convinced by the argument that a historically authentic-sized orchestra is necessary as the composer might actually have been visualising something beyond that which was available to him at the time in terms of orchestral resources.)

As I said before, it is my hope that the greater 'reach' of the Naxos empire will lead to public performances of this deserving symphony.

I haven't yet listened to the VC, so that pleasure now awaits...

Quote from: Alan Howe on Monday 29 July 2024, 12:39(I am not always convinced by the argument that a historically authentic-sized orchestra is necessary as the composer might actually have been imagining something beyond that which was available to him at the time in terms of orchestral resources.)

I don't think it necessary per se, but in this case I feel that the smaller size benefits the performance. This greater sense of nimbleness is helped by the way it was recorded and the resultant, more transparent sound. I find the cpo recording a bit dark.

When one speaks of the work as between the violin concertos of Schumann and Brahms (I assume? or just between their styles?) - if the former, did Brahms ever hear that work even in reduction, beyond perhaps seeing the manuscript? (Heck, did Dietrich?)

I meant that the Symphony falls somewhere between Schumann and Brahms - it's darker in tone overall than any of Schumann's Symphonies and rather less 'athletic' in feel. I rather like the darker sonority on cpo,

Dietrich's VC is another matter - it's not really comparable in scope with Brahms' VC. I'd say it comes closer in idiom and ambition to either of Bruch's first two VCs and deserves the sort of attention now given to that of Schumann. The Naxos recording is, I think, outstanding: the orchestra doesn't sound at all underpowered (quite the opposite, in fact) and the soloist, Klaidi Sahatçi from Albania, is as splendid in the display passages as he is in the more lyrical moments. Overall, I prefer his performance to the ones on Schwann (deleted) and cpo.

Quote from: eschiss1 on Monday 29 July 2024, 17:16did Brahms ever hear that work even in reduction, beyond perhaps seeing the manuscript? (Heck, did Dietrich?)

Joachim performed the work in rehearsal with the Hanover orchestra.  I also read that he performed the work in reduction with Clara Schumann.  Finally, there is a letter from Clara to Brahms asking him to revise the finale.  Whether or not he heard it, I think he was familiar with the score. 

That's fascinating, John. I'm sure Brahms knew Dietrich's music as they moved in the same circles. However, Brahms intention, as with his two PCs, was clearly to write a more symphonic VC to put alongside Beethoven's.

Dietrich's VC, though, really should be played by all self-respecting virtuosos. A case could certainly be made for counting it the composer's finest composition.

Not did Brahms know Dietrich's music- that's obviously not what I meant (!?!)- did Dietrich know Schumann's concerto, obviously- but there's no way to answer that question without access to his correspondence or a worthy scholarly biography of him, neither of which seems to be available at this time, I believe...

Edit: ok, no edited collection of his correspondence that I know of, maybe, though actually, maybe?... hrmm - "Brief von Dietrich, Albert Hermann an Otto Wigand <Leipzig> in Leipzig" seems to be a book that has been uploaded, for example... - so...

We forget how close Dietrich was to the Schumann family. The Schumann Concerto was written in September and October 1853. There is a letter from Dietrich to Joachim from November 1853 in which he says he wishes he could join Brahms and Joachim in Hanover but cannot because of important family matters with the Schumanns that require him to remain in Düsseldorf with them. And it was Dietrich who wrote the letter in February 1854 informing Joachim and Brahms of Schumann's suicide attempt. It was Dietrich, then, who was closest to the Schumanns during the months following the concerto's composition. 

There is also a letter from Schumann to Joachim from November 1854 in which he writes, "If I could only hear my D minor Concerto played by you; Clara wrote so enthusiastically about it." So the Concerto was hardly a secret. I don't see how Dietrich could not have known about it.

In the August 2021 issue of the 19th Century Music Review there is an article titled "D-Minor Concertos and Symphonies of the Brahms–Schumann Circle in the 1850s: Cross-Relationships and the Influence of Beethoven" that discusses the mutual influences of the Schumann circle, including Dietrich's concerto.  Perhaps there are clues there.

Quote from: Alan Howe on Monday 29 July 2024, 19:06Dietrich's VC, though, really should be played by all self-respecting virtuosos. A case could certainly be made for counting it the composer's finest composition.

Couldn't agree more!  It's a winner from beginning to end.

All I was trying to say was that Dietrich's Symphony, in tone and scale, seems to look forward to Brahms, whereas the Violin Concerto, at least in terms of ambition, is more akin to the VCs of Schumann and Bruch (Nos.1 and 2). As for the exact relationship between Schumann's VC and Dietrich's, that's a different question: they're both in the same key, but are separated, of course, by some twenty years. There's also the rather disjointed performance history of Schumann's VC - as Wikipedia reports:

Composition
Schumann wrote it in Düsseldorf between 11 September and 3 October 1853 for the violinist Joseph Joachim. He had just previously completed another work for Joachim, the Fantasie in C major, Op. 131. On 1 October, the young Johannes Brahms entered Schumann's life. It appears that Schumann composed the finale of the Concerto in three days: 1–3 October, after making Brahms's acquaintance. Later in October, he collaborated with his new friend Brahms and his pupil Albert Dietrich in the 'F-A-E' Sonata for violin and piano, also written for Joachim.

Subsequent history and conflicting opinions
Though Joachim performed Schumann's Fantasie, he never performed the Violin Concerto. After playing it through with the Hannover Court Orchestra (of which Joachim was the concertmaster) for Schumann in October 1853, Joachim retained the manuscript for the rest of his life. After Schumann's attempted suicide in February 1854 and subsequent decline and death in a sanatorium in Endenich, Joachim evidently suspected the Concerto was a product of Schumann's madness and thought of the music as morbid. Joachim's biographer Andreas Moser reproduced a letter in which Joachim discussed Schumann's Concerto as showing 'a certain exhaustion, which attempts to wring out the last resources of spiritual energy', though 'certain individual passages bear witness to the deep feelings of the creative artist'.
  Joachim's opinion prevailed on the composer's widow Clara and on Brahms, and the work was not published in the Complete Edition of Schumann's works and was in effect kept secret throughout the 19th century. Brahms did however publish, in a supplementary volume of the Schumann Edition, 'Schumann's last musical thought', a theme on which Schumann had begun to compose variations in early 1854. Schumann had thought the theme had been dictated to him by the spirits of Mendelssohn and Schubert, no longer recognizing that it was a melody he had used in the slow movement of the Violin Concerto. Brahms also wrote a set of piano-duet variations on this theme, his Opus 23.

Spirit voices
Joachim deposited the manuscript of the concerto with the Prussian State Library in Berlin, and stated in his will (he died in 1907) that the work should be neither played nor published until 100 years after the composer's death, i.e. until 1956. However in March 1933, during a spiritualist séance in London attended by Joachim's two great-nieces, the sister violinists Jelly d'Arányi and Adila Fachiri, a spirit-voice identifying himself as Robert Schumann requested Miss d'Aranyi to recover an unpublished work of his (of which she claimed to have no knowledge) and to perform it. In a second message, this time from the spirit of Joachim, they were directed to the Prussian State Library.

Menuhin's involvement
Yet no more was heard for four years, until in 1937 Schott Music, the music-publisher in Mainz, sent a copy of the score to Yehudi Menuhin asking for an opinion. He played it through with Hephzibah Menuhin, and reported to the conductor Vladimir Golschmann in July 1937 that it was the historically missing link of the violin literature. Menuhin planned to deliver the world premiere at San Francisco, and announced it for 3 October, but was interrupted by the appearance of Jelly d'Aranyi, who claimed the right of first performance for herself on the basis of the spiritualist messages.

First performances and recording
However, all of this was to no avail, for the world copyright to the concerto was held in Germany, and the German government insisted on the world premiere being given by a German. Georg Kulenkampff had worked on the score in some detail to render it playable, with Paul Hindemith (who, though his own works were now prohibited from performance in Germany, prepared the violin-piano reduction) and with Georg Schünemann, and it was Kulenkampff who gave the first performance, on 26 November 1937, with the Berlin Philharmonic. Kulenkampff recorded it soon after the first performance. Menuhin gave the second performance, in the piano version, accompanied by Ferguson Webster, at Carnegie Hall, New York, on 6 December 1937, and repeated this with the St Louis Symphony Orchestra under Golschmann on 23 December. Jelly d'Aranyi gave the first London performance, with the BBC Symphony Orchestra at the Queen's Hall.
  The concerto slowly made its way into the concert repertoire and is now recognized as an important work of the composer.

Dietrich's concerto
Albert Dietrich, who must certainly have seen Schumann's Violin Concerto in the month of its completion, composed a Violin Concerto of his own in 1874, intended for Joachim, which is in the same key (D minor); Dietrich's finale however uses polka rather than polonaise rhythms. It is possible that it was influenced by his private knowledge of the unperformed work (though Brahms's influence is easier to detect).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violin_Concerto_(Schumann)

I'm still on the fence about getting this.  I like the CPO, so it would really be primarily for the overture.  But then how soon can we expect a rival recording of that?  Perhaps I should just take the leap. 

I think you'll also appreciate the very fine performance of the Violin Concerto, John. It might just be the best of the three that have been recorded thus far.

I was lukewarm about the Violin Concerto recording when I first sampled it but I do now agree with Alan, Klaidi Sahatçi's performance is so persuasive and the orchestral support is absolutely fine. The cpo account seems a tad pedestrian by comparison. I remain agnostic about the Symphony but the Overture is a winner.

My verdict is: cpo for the Symphony and Naxos for the Violin Concerto (plus the nice bonus of the Overture).

There's a very interesting review by Dave Hurwitz of a new Brahms Symphony cycle featuring the Chamber Orchestra of Europe. He quite likes it, but he has some interesting things to say about the lack of strings. I'm just wondering whether what he says about Brahms has any bearing upon Dietrich. See what you think...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCHEO8M05Yg

(For once I agree with DH - especially in connection with Brahms and his preferences with regard to orchestral resources. The result in the new recordings is a string section not really suited to the task.)

Good points, Alan.  Did Hurwitz say just how big the string section was?  (I tried watching, but I just can't stomach him.)  You can do Brahms with reduced strings to great effect.  By far my favorite set is the very well received cycle that Mackerras and the Scottish Chamber Orchestra did for Telarc.  He used an orchestra of about 50 players.  How many strings is that?  The scoring of Brahms's symphonies varies, but it's usually about 9 winds (2-2-2-2 plus a contrabassoon or piccolo), 9 brass (4-2-3, with a tuba in the 2nd and to my great surprise no trombones at all in the 4th, just 4-2-0...somehow I never noticed this in concert [Edit: No , I wrong -- there *are* 3 trombones, but they only play in the finale]), and 1 percussion (other than the triangle in the 4th).  This gives us 19 non-string players, leaving room for 31 strings.  Assuming you want to tally exactly 50, you could have a string choir of 8-8-6-6-3.  This works, but would be the bare minimum. 

In fact, the documentation to the set shows Mackerras used a string choir of 10-8-6-6-4, giving 34 strings and total of about 53 players, give or take.  So his orchestra of "about 50" was on the high side of 50, not the low.  Here in the provinces this is closer to how I've always heard Brahms.  The local orchestras (Springfield, Hartford) usually use orchestras of about 60 players, with a string choir of about 40, say 12-10-8-6-4.  This is slightly bigger than Mackerras, but close enough that is has always been "my" Brahms sound.  In Boston or New York, I've heard Brahms with 80 players and 60 strings (you might start your choir with 16 first violins alone), but these (and the recordings thereof) have always sounded bloated to me, with Mahler-like waves of string sound.  Many prefer this, of course, but I prefer the leaner 50 to 60 player approach.

If the new COE set uses a band of 50+ then it might be worth investigating, but if they tried to get away with anything smaller (say, only 40 players), then I can't imagine how it would work.

I have the new Naxos Dietrich disc on order, so it will be interesting to make the comparison with the CPO.

From the COE website (which doesn't distinguish between first and second violins) the string section is 19/8/9/4 = 40 strings in all. Of course, I don't know how many were actually used on the new set.

Excerpts from the new COE cycle under Nezet-Séguin can be heard here:
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9637072--johannes-brahms-the-symphonies

The other point, of course, is the matter of recording balance...

... and as we know from Paul Wee's recent Bronsart/Henselt recording, that's another can of worms!

Quite so.

Here's an interesting remark by the late Calum (Malcolm) MacDonald (in the booklet notes for the Hyperion release including Dietrich's Cello Concerto):

...his musical language, which in his maturity became something of a blend of Schumann and Brahms, is distinctive and sophisticated... (my emphasis)

Quote from: Mark Thomas on Tuesday 30 July 2024, 20:33I do now agree with Alan, Klaidi Sahatçi's performance is so persuasive and the orchestral support is absolutely fine.

I finally listened last night, coming away most impressed.  I have yet to listen to the symphony, but the concerto is well  played , the orchestra vivid and firm, and the engineering quite natural sounding, with no perceptible  sense of "Phase 4" monkeying.

Preference might just come down to the big orchestra/big hall sound on CPO versus the smaller hall/smaller orchestra sound on Naxos.  I'll know more after the symphony, but so far, so good. 

Quote from: John Boyer on Thursday 08 August 2024, 15:37Preference might just come down to the big orchestra/big hall sound on CPO versus the smaller hall/smaller orchestra sound on Naxos. 

That's exactly right and why I prefer the cpo recording for the Symphony.

I still prefer the cpo in the Symphony - not only for the extra weight of the orchestra, but also the greater momentum generated at the opening of the first movement.

...and having just heard the symphony, I am now certain you can't go wrong with this, even if you already have the CPO.  The new Naxos disc doesn't so much supplant as complement the CPO.  They are both equally valid. 

I will reverse Alan and Mark by saying I prefer the CPO for the concerto -- I like the more distant miking and integration of the soloist -- while I prefer the Naxos for the symphony -- I like the very detailed sound and vivid perspective, reminding me of Bernstein's recordings with the NYPO that he made with Columbia in the early 60s. 

...which demonstrates the abiding value of this forum, i.e. the exchange of differing views, clearly and charitably expressed.

Thank you, John.

An observation on the concerto: remember in the old days when conductors regularly subjected scores to the blue pencil? Cut recordings of Rach 2, Manfred, and many a cut ritornello from a concerto.

When I first heard the Koch recording of the Dietrich concerto, the short introduction sounded suspiciously like a full length ritornello that had been clumsily cut.  Later recordings and availability of the score speak otherwise, but now I wonder: do you suppose Dietrich might have originally composed a full double-exposition, but then changed his mind, leaving only the short introduction we have now?  It's never sounded quite right to me. 

It's never occurred to me, John, but who knows?

Here's a very positive review by Rob Maynard at MusicWeb:
https://musicwebinternational.com/2024/09/dietrich-symphony-violin-concerto-naxos/