Following the acquisition of a German radio performance of Gernsheim's Piano Concerto in C minor of 1868, I am going to hazard a guess that - were it ever to be commercially recorded - it will become a firm favourite. It is a most winning and tuneful work, wonderfully written for the piano, but also with real symphonic 'muscle'. Indeed, it feels like another missing link between, say, Schumann and Brahms - and it confirms the composer's growing reputation as a master. His stature overall seems to me at least comparable with someone such as Max Bruch.
But to return to the PC, this is real Hyperion territory, I would have thought. Of course, it may well be that cpo have snapped up the radio performance, but who knows...?
I can envisage a CD with the mouthwatering combination of the Gernsheim Concerto coupled with the Volkmann Concertstuck.
At the moment, it is just a dream.
Thal
Even more mouthwatering would be a coupling of the PCs of Gernsheim and Rufinatscha...
I'd say that the Piano Concerto, which is a early work for Gernsheim of course, shows him at his most genial and tuneful. It also has some really "big" moments. I was reminded of the Grieg, myself...
Having just signed up to this forum, I am afraid I am going to turn commercial straightaway -- but with news of which I hope others here will approve (and which Alan Howe has known for ages): that I have a recording of the two Gernsheim Piano Quintets nearly ready to run; it will be released early in the spring. You can see the cover here: www.toccataclassics.com/inpreparation.php (http://www.toccataclassics.com/inpreparation.php) (scroll down), and it will soon have a page of its own where you will be able to listen to the incipits of each movement.
Cheers
Martin Anderson
Toccata Classics
It's good to welcome you, Martin. And thanks for revealing details of this forthcoming release which should knock a few people's socks off! Or, hopefully, many people's socks off!!
Quote from: Martin Anderson on Friday 27 November 2009, 16:12
Having just signed up to this forum, I am afraid I am going to turn commercial straightaway -- but with news of which I hope others here will approve (and which Alan Howe has known for ages): that I have a recording of the two Gernsheim Piano Quintets nearly ready to run; it will be released early in the spring. You can see the cover here: www.toccataclassics.com/inpreparation.php (http://www.toccataclassics.com/inpreparation.php) (scroll down), and it will soon have a page of its own where you will be able to listen to the incipits of each movement.
Cheers
Martin Anderson
Toccata Classics
Mr Anderson: What, may one ask, is the timeline for the release of some of the other CDs shown on your "In Preparation" page? For instance, the Sinigaglia and Lavista discs....
Welcome Martin, and very welcome news aout the Piano Quintets.
Hi all
Especially Martin Anderson. Welcome indeed! The Gernsheim and Thieriot discs are mouth watering, to say the least.
Sadly, after examining your 'in preparation' page, I then made the fatal mistake of examining the list of your other releases. I will be paying Toccata a visit in about two weeks. And I mean paying. My poor credit card...if it had feelings, it would tremble whenever yours truly thinks about music.
A happy thought now. Toccata, like certain other very independent labels, is bringing forth a goodly number of forgotten Romantic Era master works. Various folk on the previous Raff Forums noted the trend and had high hopes for possible results. Another 'positive' can now be chalked up.
regards
Peter
Thank you, everyone, for such a warm welcome. To answer your questions first, the Thieriot, Gernsheim and Lavista CDs will all be out in the spring: the first two are ready to roll already, as is Vol. 1 of August Stradal's solo-piano transcriptions of the Liszt symphonic poems. Indeed, I will shortly be sending out a newsletter to members of the Discovery Club to advise them that they can get hold of the Thieriot and a new Schnittke CD before they come onto the market. (Forgive another mercenary plug, but this is a difficult row to hoe, so put it down to a survival instinct.) I'm hoping the Discovery Club will appeal to many people here. Basically, £20 a year brings you two free CDs to start with (or a free Toccata Press book) and £5 off CDs and 25% off books and downloads for the next year; more details at www.toccataclassics.com/discoveryclub.php.
Now, back to the catalogue in preparation for spring and early summer. One or two pieces on the Sinigaglia CD had to be retaken, but that was done last week, so now it's a question of waiting for the edit. The Jadassohn Piano Trios Nos. 1–3 are being prepared for a spring 2010 launch, as is Vol. 1 of the complete David Matthews string quartets (a Beethoven de nos jours!). I was listening to the near-final edit of the Ashton piano music Vol. 1 the other day and marvelling at home good the music is. Also in final or near-final edits: the first CD of orchestral pieces by Havergal Brian, chamber music by Buxton Orr, Reinhard Oppel piano music Vol. 1, the remaining two volumes of the complete Rameau keyboard music on the piano, Peeter Süda organ music, and more instalments of Telemann's Harmonischer Gottes-Dienst cantatas. And there might be one or two more I've forgotten. And there are quite a few Toccata Press books in preparation, too!
Cheers
Martin
Hi All, especially Martin.
This really is great news - I am especially interested in the Stradal / Liszt transcriptions as I have been playing them on and off for several years (still can't get the score of Tasso though...) so would like to hear how they should go!
As for the other recordings, I shall certainly have to get a better paid job!!
Quote from: Jonathan on Saturday 28 November 2009, 16:40
This really is great news - I am especially interested in the Stradal / Liszt transcriptions as I have been playing them on and off for several years (still can't get the score of Tasso though...) so would like to hear how they should go!
I have been collecting Stradal scores for yonks and have a paper copy of this somewhere, but cannot find it at the moment. I got it from Glasgow University Library who have an excellent document supply service. Edinburgh University Library have a very good collection of Stradal scores.
I am very much looking forward to this disc as i have only ever heard one recording of Stradal before. His transcriptions would probably fill 30 disks.
My pianistic skills are week, but i did have a bash at his transcriptions of Bach's Brandenburg Concerto No.3 and Strauss Roses of the South.
Thal
Back to Gernsheim's PC. I'm very longing to hear this work and I'm sure it must be delightful. I can only hope we don't have to wait too long for a CD.
I've become very fond of Gernsheim's music and especially his Piano Quartets are very dear to me. So therefore I eagerly look forward to the release of his Piano Quintets, Martin! Excellent news!
Quote from: thalbergmad on Saturday 28 November 2009, 20:08
Edinburgh University Library have a very good collection of Stradal scores.
Thal
Thanks for that Thalbermad! If I visit Edinburgh again (and we are planning to in the next couple of years), I shall certainly have to look!
Scores of Gernsheim's Violin Concerto in D, op. 42, and Symphony 2, op. 46, have recently become available on IMSLP.
http://imslp.org/wiki/Concerto_for_Violin_and_Orchestra,_Op.42_%28Gernsheim,_Friedrich%29 (http://imslp.org/wiki/Concerto_for_Violin_and_Orchestra,_Op.42_%28Gernsheim,_Friedrich%29)
http://imslp.org/wiki/File:PMLP114660-Gernsheim_-_Symphony_No_2_in_Eb_Op_46.pdf (http://imslp.org/wiki/File:PMLP114660-Gernsheim_-_Symphony_No_2_in_Eb_Op_46.pdf)
The chances for a recording of the concerto have increased at least slightly, I hope.
I just listened to the sound samples of the piano quintets on Toccata's website, and Holy Cow! Fantastic pieces, surging Romanticism at its finest. I have to go order them now...
David
They are indeed great works. Every bit as good as anything by Brahms.
The score to Gernsheim's Symphony 4 has recently become available on IMSLP:
http://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.4,_Op.62_%28Gernsheim,_Friedrich%29 (http://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.4,_Op.62_%28Gernsheim,_Friedrich%29)
What an amazing trio of truly grandiose concertos: Bortkiewicz's wonderful violin concerto as a starter, Gernsheim's gorgeous piano concerto as the main course, and Cliffe's astonishing violin concerto as the best possible dessert.
Last evening I had an almost an esoteric listening experience of one and an half hour.
A set of three, still unrecorded... Suppose some executive producers are spotting our Forum, reading our enthusiastic posts, thinking what a challange the recording of these winning masterpieces would be, finding and motivating the best possible orchestra's and soloists, seeing the commercial advantages, and afterwards reading our posts, praising their labels and new releases...
Let's cross our fingers...
Is the radio recording of the Gernsheim concerto the February 2008 (editing in, sorry) recording made by Oliver Triendl? Of curiosity...
Eric
Yes, Eric, it is!
On cpo forthcoming.
http://hermannbaeumer.com/en/node/18235 (http://hermannbaeumer.com/en/node/18235)
with the overture Zu einem Drama. Taped mid-2017.
The cellist is the same fellow who recorded it on a SWR radio broadcast years ago (Hülshoff).
Thanks, Eric, this news is really how to start the day! Of course, one has to remember the length of cpo's pipeline....
That's a truly heroic spot, Eric! Thank you!
To be honest, I'm most thrilled to hear a new rendition of Zu einem Drama, something of an anomaly in Gernsheim's work which I love dearly.
Great news. I' m very fond of Gernsheim's PC...surely the best of his concertos. I hope to live long enough to own the disc. In the meantime, there is always Triendl's YouTube recording, of course.
Yes, Zu einem Drama is a superb, compact, late Gernsheim concert overture that I like even more than his symphonies. Looking forward to this disc of his concertos.
The cello concerto is already available on Hyperion, of course, but it will be such a relief to have the piano concerto on a quality CD rather than YT.
I was surprised to see the cpo recording of the Gernsheim pc (Oliver Triendl/Philharmonisches Staatsorcherster Mainz/Hermann Bäumer) posted on youtube. I guess it has been or will be released. Also included is the Cello Concerto and Zu einem Drama.
Great news!
Here are the contents of the CD on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT4yZFXE5OA&list=OLAK5uy_nmA34qkFU7cBnlIptIH7i701NEKme1vRg
It'll probably be announced for sale at jpc within a week or two.
Can't understand why the PC isn't in the standard repertoire...
Oh, neat!!
Neat indeed!
Alan, your introduction some 15 years back was spot on. I absolutely love it.
I was ,up until now, thinking that the Venetian Ambassador's remark "If Death came from Spain, we would live for ever" was only too apposite when it came to this recording.
So,it is all the more welcome that cpo have finally managed to outrun my expectation that I would never live to see the fruits of Triendl's labour.
I've taken some time today listening to this recording. I remember that a few years ago Gernsheim's piano concerto, Urspruch's concerto and the one by Rufinatscha became available in the same week, either through a commercial release or on Youtube. Back then I felt that the Rufinatscha was something of a disappointment, but the Gernsheim and particularly the Urspruch were very good works indeed. Thankfully, this release of the Gernsheim is even better than the one that appeared on Youtube back then (which also featured Oliver Triendl, but with the Nürnberger Symphoniker conducted by Radislaw Szulc). Triendl is as reliable as ever, but the Philharmonisches Staatsorchester Mainz seems to be more engaged than the Nürnbergers, and the sound is also better. It's a gorgeous piece, even if it's not quite of the same level and personality as Gernsheim's mature works.
The two other pieces on the CD are known from earlier recordings and here the results are more mixed. Hülshoff and Bäumer's approach to the cello concerto is quite different from Gerhardt and Lintu's. While the latter emphasized the rhapsodic, Konzertstück-like aspect of the piece, the former seem to approach it more like a "true" concerto, giving a definite lyrical treatment. I'm not sure yet which I like more, but it's good to have two somewhat contrasting visions of the piece regardless.
For me, Zu einem Drama is Gernsheim's orchestral masterpiece, but unfortunately this is where I feel Bäumer lets us down somewhat. His version is almost two minutes slower than the older Arp recording and it's difficult to justify that extra time. The problem is mainly one of articulation, and the sonics don't help: at times the playing feels labored by comparison, and the more dynamic passages can get outright mushy. Compare Bäumer (5:10) to Arp (4:43), for instance.
By the way, Zu einem Drama is divided into three parts here; no doubt a consequence of Youtube's, Spotify's and others' renumberation per individual stream. Be prepared to see future releases get divided into micro-sections.
Quote from: Ilja on Friday 22 November 2024, 18:45I remember that a few years ago Gernsheim's piano concerto, Urspruch's concerto and the one by Rufinatscha became available in the same week, either through a commercial release or on Youtube. Back then I felt that the Rufinatscha was something of a disappointment, but the Gernsheim and particularly the Urspruch were very good works indeed.
The YT uploads of Gernsheim and Rufinatscha PCs somehow made me memorize them in pairs. In reverse I preferred the Rufinatscha PC for its better thematic material (the recording is done on a historical piano, unfortunately), and the opening of Gernsheim's struck me as uninspired and I didn't come back to it for a long time (though I did listen to the end that time). Only after listening to this recording did I find the Gernsheim PC moderately worthy.
I agree that the Urspruch PC is great though the first movement is overtly long.
It's also a rather early Gernsheim work (not to suggest that I don't want to hear even earlier works like the I believe as yet unperformed E-flat symphony...)
Quote from: eschiss1 on Saturday 23 November 2024, 02:36It's also a rather early Gernsheim work
Well, yes - but he was thirty-ish when he wrote it, so it's a fully mature work.
It seems to me that Gernsheim was one of those people who flourish in isolation rather than among company. In 1874 he became the director of the Rotterdam Musical Society and the Rotterdam Conservatory. At the time Rotterdam was a bit of a musical backwater even by Dutch standards, and with Gernsheim's tasks being relatively light, this left him much more time to compose than before. During his sixteen years in Rotterdam we see him write two and a half symphonies, a violin concerto, and countless chamber and choral works, and mature his style considerably. A work like the 3rd Symphony shows a much more confident composer than the piano concerto; it also sounds much more Brahmsian. During his Rotterdam tenure, Gernsheim kept up a steady correspondence with Brahms, Dietrich and others, but he also attended far fewer concerts (Amsterdam was really the only venue of significance within a day's travel), which might have caused a more focused development (although this is pure speculation on my part). Combined, this might explain why the concerto doesn't really sound all that much like later Gernsheim.
Thanks, Ilja. That's a perceptive analysis. Might we talk of a progression from a Mendelssohnian/Schumannesque idiom to a more Brahmsian style, filtered through his own creative inspiration?
I was comparing a symphony from the end of his teen years (1857, so perhaps composed during his years in Paris) to a concerto whose manuscript (also held at Tel Aviv) seems to be dated 1869 (same year as first publication) (so, ca.30 years indeed) during his years in Cologne. My mistake there, wasn't thinking...
No problem, Eric. There's no doubt that the PC is in the style of Gernsheim's early maturity.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Sunday 24 November 2024, 14:26Thanks, Ilja. That's a perceptive analysis. Might we talk of a progression from a Mendelssohnian/Schumannesque idiom to a more Brahmsian style, filtered through his own creative inspiration?
Yes, I think that sums it up pretty well – with the addendum that Gernsheim moved to a more personal, post-Brahmsian style in the final stage of his life, as illustrated by
Zu einem Drama.
Yes, that's an interesting point. It's post-Brahmsian, but still basically classical-romantic rather than 'neudeutsch', if you know what I'm getting at.
Yes. I hear some interesting overlaps between late Gernsheim (b. 1839) and the generation of Felix Woyrsch (particularly) and Fritz Volbach (both born around 1860).
There must be continuities between these different generations, especially with those of a more conservative turn of mind. However, take Woyrsch, for example, and one realises how far he moves beyond Gernsheim/Thieriot after his 1st Symphony through greater use of chromaticism. The same is true of Fritz Brun.
Here's the download for sale:
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9743927--friedrich-gernsheim-piano-concerto-op-16-cello-concerto-op-78-zu-einem-drama-op-82
No doubt the CD will soon follow...
Advertised here as a January 1st CD release:
https://www.clicmusique.com/friedrich-gernsheim-concertos-pour-piano-pour-violoncelle-einem-drama-triendl-hulshoff-baumer-p-112867.html?osCsid=3u754esm3i3q15rmknjlm3e5t4
...although the CD has in fact now been released by jpc:
https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/friedrich-gernsheim-klavierkonzert/hnum/6142540
My copy of this superlative recording has now arrived and more than ever I am astonished at the neglect of Gernsheim's Piano Concerto which has truly memorable themes throughout. Oliver Triendl's performance has all the virtuosity required and the orchestral support here is outstanding. The work could have been a jewel in Hyperion's RPC crown, but instead cpo are to be congratulated on a magnificent release. With the generous coupling of Gernsheim's late masterpiece Zu einem Drama and his equally late and taut Cello Concerto, this is an unmissable release.
Why Zu einem Drama isn't played often in concerts I haven't a clue. This is truly great music - isn't it?
Well, now I have to try to hear it. When I first got interested in Gernsheim the only recording I could find was the Genesis LP with the first of the cello sonatas. I've heard the other two works on this disc (one of them possibly in the Hyperion recording of cello concertos, broadcast on radio or somehow I think at some point- but also in an appreciated private tape/CD that I received as a present decades ago; less sure if I've heard the piano concerto though I see that I have our old upload of it...), but I haven't heard the abridged recording of Zu einem Drama released awhile back- and this sounds like a disc to at least stream and then maybe get.
(Re Gernsheim: my interest probably stems from William Newman's entry on him in "The Sonata Since Beethoven", and then from having a look at various published and at the time mostly unrecorded scores at NYPL...)
Quote from: Alan Howe on Thursday 19 December 2024, 19:22Why Zu einem Drama isn't played often in concerts I haven't a clue. This is truly great music - isn't it?
Certainly. Unfortunately it doesn't really fit in to modern concert programmes: too long for the opener, too short for the main fare of the evening; the same reason why the Konzertstück has all but disappeared.
I know what you mean. Do they still programme, say, Strauss' Don Juan or Tchaikovsky's Romeo & Juliet, i.e. pieces of a similar length?
I see some performances of Romeo and Juliet on Bachtrack, but predominantly in Tchaikovsky-themed evenings or to make up for a shorter concerto. Same with Don Juan. It doesn't seem to happen often though. However, as there seems to be a move away from the typical concerto "sandwich" (overture-concerto-/interlude/-Symphony) I have some hope that pieces such as this may get another chance.
To return to the Piano Concerto, I'd say that this is not only a magnificent work, but that the CD features a magnificent recording of it. Oliver Triendl surpasses himself in virtuosity and feeling for the idiom and Hermann Bäumer produces really strong results from the Philharmonisches Staatsorchester Mainz; the recording quality is also top-notch: clear and full-bodied with plenty of punch.
Now let's hope the recording gets its due from UK reviewers.
I agree that the piano concerto is a fine piece and this is a splendid recording of it. The 'cello concerto, though, surely benefits from the faster speeds that Alban Gerhardt adopts on the Hyperion disc. I'm not sure that I would describe it as a "taut" work but Gerhardt's performance makes it sound so and is more compelling.
I must make some comparisons myself - thanks for the tip.
Hyperion: 5:24/3:12/5:13 >>> TT:13:49
cpo: 6:40/4:25/6:26 >>> TT:17:31
In short: two different conceptions of the same work.
OTOH, Triendl's recording of the piano concerto with Baumer on cpo (11:29/9:36/7:06) is slower in each movement than his own conception of the work with Szulc (10:57/8:54/6:41). (When you wrote that Triendl surpasses himself, I'm guessing you literally meant that, of course...)
Thomas Blees' recording of the cello concerto, at 16:14 length (I think? that may include some applause, will check) comes in between the Hyperion and cpo of course...
Quote from: eschiss1 on Sunday 05 January 2025, 19:16When you wrote that Triendl surpasses himself, I'm guessing you literally meant that, of course..
I'm assuming that is friendly sarcasm ;).
So, was it Triendl or Bäumer who was responsible for the more expansive performance on cpo? Answer: we don't really know. Perhaps it was a joint decision. All I know is that it works in the PC - magnificently. And the fact that everything on the new CD is slower than other recorded performances of the same pieces leads me to suspect that the instigator was in fact the conductor.
No, no, it was an honest question, when I noticed that the two recordings of the piano concerto both had Triendl... so if he was better in the more recent one, he was surpassing himself... probably together with the conductor and orchestra, imho (some pianists learn their concertos without collaborating with the orchestra, at least one once told me (can't remember who or when now), but I have always found that difficult to believe)
All I can add is that this new performance of the PC has the potential to put Gernsheim more fully in the public eye. It's that good.
Kudos to cpo and all involved, then!
This weighty and thoughtful piano concerto is a masterpiece,in my opinion. Does anyone else agree?
Absolutely. 100%.
Apologies for being a contrarian voice here, but I don't think this is prime Gernsheim. It is an excellent concerto containing beautiful music, don't get me wrong, but it also lacks the sophistication we see in his later works, particularly the last two symphonies, Zu einem Drama, and the B minor piano quartet. I mean this in terms of both instrumentation as composition. In a sense, I think the work is just a bit too formally unexceptional to lay claim to a term as lofty as "masterpiece".
It's fine to disagree, of course. I'd simply say that the PC is the masterpiece of Gernsheim's early maturity.
By the way, I note that the timpani are very well recorded here - it makes a big difference.
A spectacular recording and brilliant pianism but, for me, not a great masterpiece. But I've only listened a couple of times, and I respect the more positive opinions expressed here, so maybe increased familiarity will lead to a better appreciation.
And I respect your view, Colin. I'm probably overestimating the PC's stature. My problem: I can't get the piece out of my head - it's so memorable...
I said that I thought this is a masterpiece, and I stand by my opinion. I think it deserves a chance in the concert-hall.
But I did not reach that opinion overnight. The first time I played the concerto I was possibly as tepid as Ilya!
But Alan's advocacy persuaded me to persevere. It was on about the fourth or fifth time I played it that I began to say to myself: this is not a poor man's Brahms, but something of stature;moving,profound.
I have now listened to it about twenty times. I think my persistence has been well-rewarded.
As I said before, I'm tempted to agree - and this recording certainly does it justice.
Quote from: terry martyn on Saturday 11 January 2025, 11:56I said that I thought this is a masterpiece, and I stand by my opinion. I think it deserves a chance in the concert-hall.
For me, the bar for "deserves a place in the concert hall" is a fair bit lower than the one for declaring something a masterpiece (i.e, a work of a quality that knows few if any rivals in its category). This concerto absolutely deserves the former epithet, but I'm not sure about the latter.
That's probably true, but I really rate the work. It's so memorable.
It's worth encountering wonderful works that meet the lower standard, they are not -that- thick on the ground. And even the (even) more subjective standard of being (happily, I mean) persistently earwormish (several unsung works , ones which have been criticized as unmemorable or worse, have had very substantial sections run through my head- and still do even now that I know what they are...)
Coming back to this recording after a few weeks, it seems to me that what the Triendl/Bäumer partnership has done is to position Gernsheim's PC half-way between Schumann and Brahms. A very clever move, in my view, and one which vindicates the work as the masterpiece of his early maturity. In other words, it's more than Schumann, but not quite Brahms.