Does anyone here think, with me, that Bruch's VC3 is as great a work as Brahms' VC? It is conceived on the same large scale and has melodies even more luscious than those of Brahms. Discuss...
I'm not a huge fan of Brahm's concerto,so yes, I would agree. Much more memorable melodies actually. The true mark of a master is conceiving a brilliant melody. But what separates from the run of the mill is then his ability to use that melody or melodies in an extended manner. I'm thinking of pieces that just basically repeat and repeat and repeat until the end of the movement you're sick of hearing it, no matter how lovely it sounded at the beginning. Not so withthe Bruch.
Personally I'm very partial to Glazunov's concerto.
Jerry
Quote from: jerfilm on Friday 30 March 2012, 00:11
Personally I'm very partial to Glazunov's concerto.
Jerry
So am I - wonderful piece. But I wouldn't include it in this comparison because it's on a much smaller scale. Glad to know it's not just me that rates Bruch's VC3 so highly, though.
Better than all of them, I think, is Bruch's Scottish Fantasy. Great tunes (even if he didn't invent them all) and a wonderful opportunity for a violin virtuoso with soul.
Bruch's SF is a great piece, I agree - but to my mind it's a different sort of composition. It doesn't aim to be the sort of large-scale, symphonic concerto which the Brahms VC and Bruch's own VC3 aspire to be.
The thing I find fascinating about the SF is, there are so many recordings (and it's one of the few pieces that I have multiple recordings of) each slightly different, a different passion, and each very lovely in it's own right. Maybe it's a work that's hard to screw up.....
But you're surely correct, Alan, it's not in the class with the concertos.
Jerry
Quote from: jerfilm on Friday 30 March 2012, 17:35
But you're surely correct, Alan, it's not in the class with the concertos.
Jerry
That's why I find the comparison between Brahms' VC and Bruch's VC3 so fascinating...
Being a relative fan of the Brahms VC, the comparison does seem apt, since the scale of both works is similar (in fact, an argument could be made that the Bruch is an even larger scale work, since there is space in the first movement of the Brahms for an extensive cadenza which Bruch doesn't provide). I find the melodic content of the first movement of the Bruch VC 3 memorable, but I can see how others might not. However, it is certainly a much more austere work than the Brahms, which may be one reason it hasn't caught on.
To be honest, I'm not so convinced that the Bruch No.3 is quite in the same class as Brahms' monumental work, and I speak as an avowed Bruch enthusiast. As is so often the case it's the finales which provide the most telling contrast. Brahms' à la hongroise tribute to Joachim for me is a jubilantly satisfying conclusion, whereas Bruch's effort, whilst still enjoyable, is a more tail-chasing affair. That said, I would propose Joachim's own magnificent "Hungarian" Concerto as not only the model for Brahms', but it's equal.
Yes, Joachim's Hungarian Concerto is entirely relevant here. It's a work on a huge scale for the middle of the nineteenth century and must have served as a model for Brahms' great VC. For me, though, it does tend to meander in that very long first movement and I don't find that it has the expressive power of Bruch's VC3. But I'm glad you mentioned it, Mark. It's definitely in the same ball-park in terms of stature.
Actually, another large-scale VC (37+ mins) is Anton Rubinstein's, which I like very much for its memorable tunes and seriousness of purpose. It's also given a superb performance on Naxos (originally Marco Polo) by Takako Nishizaki.
Quote from: JimL on Friday 30 March 2012, 19:01
...it is certainly a much more austere work than the Brahms, which may be one reason it hasn't caught on.
I very much agree with Jim about it being more austere than the Brahms and therein lies it appeal for me. I find the ghost of Schumann hovering over it, perhaps more so than in most of the works of Bruch with which I am familiar. There's no doubt in my mind that is a beautiful work.
Quote from: dafrieze on Friday 30 March 2012, 12:55
Better than all of them, I think, is Bruch's Scottish Fantasy. Great tunes (even if he didn't invent them all) and a wonderful opportunity for a violin virtuoso with soul.
Bruch's Scottish Fantasy is strikingly similar to Rimsky-Korsakov's Concert Fantasy on Russian Themes in B minor, Op.33.....does anyone else think so?
Quote from: Alan Howe on Friday 30 March 2012, 20:09
Actually, another large-scale VC (37+ mins) is Anton Rubinstein's, which I like very much for its memorable tunes and seriousness of purpose. It's also given a superb performance on Naxos (originally Marco Polo) by Takako Nishizaki.
hhmmm...I must dust this one off and listen to it again. I am a great Rubinstein fan, but I listened to his VC once (the Nishizaki version) and thought it was the dullest, most lifeless most tuneless thing I had ever heard and never listened to it again! Maybe I was having a bad day....
Quote from: Christopher on Friday 06 April 2012, 12:31
........ I am a great Rubinstein fan, but I listened to his VC once (the Nishizaki version) and thought it was the dullest, most lifeless most tuneless thing I had ever heard and never listened to it again! Maybe I was having a bad day....
I too am a Rubinstein fan but I think you WERE having a bad day. The Violin concerto is by no means his best work nevertheless it is well crafted and Sufficiently tuneful that it would make a nice addition to the regular repertoire .. once for every 1000th performance of Mendelssohn, Beethoven, Brahms, etc!
FBerwald, you're a man after my own heart! Except for the Brahms of course ;)
In the meantime I'm trying to find the right words to respond to Alan's question. How to describe the shades of meaning as a Dutchman with a limited knowledge of the English language? In my view Brahms has composed the most powerful, emotional and greatest VC ever. But Bruch's 3rd does tend to imitate (no, not the right word) the way Brahms has developed his magical masterpiece. And it's a wonderful VC too, almost his best... Well, I'm looking for better words to describe what I mean.
A problem with the Bruch 3 and the Rubinstein as well is also to be found in the development sections of the first movements. Both tend to take a rather lyrical, somewhat lackadaisacal approach, which I find very undramatic. In this, the Rubinstein seems to be rather more of a guilty party than the Bruch. At least the retransition to the recap in Bruch 3 builds up some tension and drama. In the Brahms, starting from that chain of trills, through the fugato tutti and all the way to the recap there is a buildup of excitement that you just don't find in the Rubinstein. And the Bruch 3 has an extended development which is mostly in a subdued mood all the way to the retransition previously mentioned.
Peter, you are doing just fine! I know exactly what you are saying - and I agree with Jim too. After several days of listening to the two pieces, I acknowledge that Brahms has an ability to develop his material which Bruch doesn't (quite) have. I just wish that these slightly lower peaks in the VC repertoire were given more opportunity to be heard.
Moving on in time, would the Reger VC and Elgar VC challenge Brahms' VC in the symphonic violin concerto stakes, perhaps?
As an afterthought, the Klughardt VC at nearly 40 minutes is also on a symphonic scale...