I'd like to ask the forum what you think is the best, most satisfying and innovative, solution to that burden of the nineteenth-century componist: the wretched 'Finale problem'. We can all recall unsungs that didn't do so well, but who do you think made a good job of it - at least, whose finale 'belongs' most to the work it is part of? I was recently listening to Peterson-Berger's Fifth Symphony, and while I think that it does have its share of problems, I think that the finale is in perfect balance with the rest of the work.
Draeseke in his 3rd Symphony - no contest.
Am I the only one who's often thought "If he'd only switched the first and last movements, it would have been perfect??" Well, maybe not perfect,but much better. It sometimes seems to me that a work starts full of inspiration but peters out by the finale.
I still like the finale of Alfred Hill's "The Joy of Life"
Jerry
The climax of Hans Rott's Symphony in E major begins with 12 minutes remaing and is sustained until the end.
Quote from: jerfilm on Monday 23 April 2012, 13:53
Am I the only one who's often thought "If he'd only switched the first and last movements, it would have been perfect??"
The whole point of Draeseke 3 is that it ends as if ready to start all over again. To suggest switching them round is to misunderstand the piece entirely.
Oh, I wasn't very clear, was I? I wasn't referring to the Draeseke- just many symphonys in general. Sorry 'bout that.
J
Quote from: jerfilm on Monday 23 April 2012, 18:53
Oh, I wasn't very clear, was I? I wasn't referring to the Draeseke- just many symphonys in general. Sorry 'bout that.
Oops! My apologies too! ;)
Quote from: jerfilm on Monday 23 April 2012, 13:53
Am I the only one who's often thought "If he'd only switched the first and last movements, it would have been perfect??" Well, maybe not perfect,but much better. It sometimes seems to me that a work starts full of inspiration but peters out by the finale
I've always thought that about the Herzogenberg B flat minor (no 2 or 3, depending on how you count).
Draeseke's Tragica has surely one of the best final movements of all symphonies written in the 19th century.
Another master in solving the finale problem was Sergey Taneyev. Fo me the most convincing of his final movements are found in his 4th symphony, the String Quintet op. 16 and the Piano Quartet op. 20. Eg. op. 20: An extensive sonata movement flows into a fugue about its main theme and is crowned by a coda which uses material from all the three movements of the work and brings the turbulent minor key finale to a calm and solemn conclusion in E major.
I find the finale of Taneyev's fourth by far the weakest movement in a generally good symphony. It's far too loosely strung together and the final statement borders on bathos.
Can I add a couple of "sung" choices? Mahler 2 and 8. And "The Dream of Gerontius" ALWAYS brings me to tears.....
Jerry
Well, ya know, we all love music anchored in the lyrical style of the romantics, but everyone has different musical tastes when it gets down to the particulars.
I need to think about this question, but off the top of my head, I'll mention Glazunov's 5th, Gliere's 3rd, and Tubin's 5th.
I didn't expect a Draeseke-Rott rematch quite so soon. Rott's last movement supposedly attempts a synthesis of Brahms 1st/Bruckner 5th (although the jiggy-fugue after the intro in Schubert's Octet last movement seems influential too). Of course, Rott mixes in loads of triangle and right at the end Wagner awaits – both also feature at the end of Mahler's 1st Symphony where, listening carefully, the Wagnerian underscoring in the strings can be heard. But for Mahler, Rott's symphony wasn't good enough for his big ending. So instead he used the theme from Rott's Suite in E major: for the standing bell horns victory peel.
Rott sweeps up his whole symphony in his last movement combined with meeting up with his musical heroes Bruckner, Brahms and Wagner. That's ambitious for a young man in his first major work. Indeed, it seems that he has thrown everything in to make for happy ending, healing the great political divide in Vienna's musical life. But I'm not sure that is a happy ending at all. For there is no return for the love theme that flickered so briefly at the Vienna ball early in the 3rd movement, because the heartbroken Hans Rott had by this time now lost Louise Löhr, the only true love of his short and tragic life.
I've always felt that the "Finale Problem" is little more than a widespread "everybody says so so it must be true" myth.
In terms of organic growth, the best ending from the Romantic era is that of Bruckner's 5th Symphony - no contest.
Quote from: jerfilm on Monday 23 April 2012, 23:41
Can I add a couple of "sung" choices? Mahler 2 and 8. And "The Dream of Gerontius" ALWAYS brings me to tears.....
Jerry
I quite agree about those ones. He's not 19th century (but neither is Mahler 8), but I do feel Havergal Brian had a wonderful way with endings. The hushed ending of the 'Gothic', the grinding finish of the 3rd, the flood of energy of the 9th... I could go on. He wasn't always so sure about openings, though.
Quote from: Sequentia on Tuesday 24 April 2012, 13:23
I've always felt that the "Finale Problem" is little more than a widespread "everybody says so so it must be true" myth.
I agree entirely; indeed, this kind of thing reminds me of the venerable Richard Ingrams' oft-used phrase "it must be true - I read it in
The Daily Telegraph". The most satisfactory answer to the thread topic (from the composer's point of view, at least) is surely therefore not to begin a finale by considering how to solve an allegedly omnipresent problem that is perceived to be unique to finales - and, if I may say so, I can speak from personal experience!...
Quote from: Sequentia on Tuesday 24 April 2012, 13:23In terms of organic growth, the best ending from the Romantic era is that of Bruckner's 5th Symphony - no contest.
Is there - or indeed can there be - such a thing as a "best" in this regard? - and why in any case would or should there be a "contest" for one? That said, the finale of Bruckner 5 is undoubtedly a very powerful contender in 19th century symphonic writing - so much so, in fact, that it might have exerted quite some impact on the composer had he been able to hear it when it was hot off the press rather than not at all (other than in his own head, of course)...
Lest we lose focus, may I remind members of the remit of this topic:
<<I'd like to ask the forum what you think is the best, most satisfying and innovative, solution to that burden of the nineteenth-century composer: the wretched 'Finale problem'. We can all recall unsungs that didn't do so well, but who do you think made a good job of it - at least, whose finale 'belongs' most to the work it is part of?>>
Anybody plumping for Rufinatscha 5?
Well, it's certainly a magnificent work - and it has a magnificent finale. Dating from sometime between 1846 and 1852 (it's apparently impossible to be more precise), it contains material of a type which had never before been heard in symphonic music and is certainly a satisfying whole, with no obvious weaknesses.
The finale of Berwald's Sinfonie Singulière. The restless energy, the short reminiscences from the earlier movements, fitted in perfectly, and the triumphant ending, all sums up to a perfect way of ending the symphony, in my opinion.
I have always found the finale to Kalinnikov's first symphony tremendously exciting. I like the way he references all the other movements in it, sometimes quite subtely. I also like the way that the theme which opens the movement (after the brief reference to the first movement) degrades into a sort of ostinato. I think ending the piece with the main theme from the slow movement is brilliant!
I vote for the finales of Taneyev Sym No. 2, St. Saens Sym no. 3, Beethoven Piano Cto No. 5, just because I am standing up waving my arms or "playing" the organ or piano when they happen!
The problem is there is no single "best" solution to the finale problem. Appropriate finales depend heavily on what has preceded them, not? When you have a serious, minor key symphony or concerto there are a number of different approaches to take - lighten things up a bit (e.g. Tchaik S 4, Beethoven S 5), stay serious as a heart attack (e.g. Rufinatscha S 5, Schubert SQ 14) or various permutations of the above (e.g. Brahms S 1, Mozart PC 20). One of the most effective finales I've encountered, believe it or not, is the wonderful finale to Hiller's 3rd Piano Quartet. Where you've had two initial movements of a serious, somber, perhaps even tragic demeanor, and an intermezzo of a decidedly melancholy character, you end up with a vehement march, in the major key, but with all kinds of minor inflections (flatted 6ths, etc.) and loads of tension that resolves in a triumphant peroration. One problem that always seems to arise is with those individuals who level the accusation that a finale "overstays its welcome", a diatribe that I've heard leveled at more finales than any other movement. It does seem to be true that composers (and others) seem to take cuts out of more finales than any other movement, not?
I can't resist one more. And "sung" too. Dvorak Cello Concerto in a. The ultimate finale, written after the work was "done" and a tragic death occurred which inspired the new, much, much longer coda......it's hard to beat that one.
Jerry
I can think of many satisfactory finales in 19th-century symphonies, but if one wants to raise the bar to the level of Bruckner 5 -- which is to say to a finale that not only is in balance with the previous movements but that carries forward and completes their argument in a way never before achieved -- then I, too, will point to Draeseke 3 as the work that instantly comes to mind. I'll go out on a limb and say further that, despite Bruckner being one of my best-loved and most listened-to composers, Draeseke accomplishes his miracle with subtler means than Bruckner employs in his cathedral-like Symphony 5. Just a personal opinion.
Quote from: jerfilm on Friday 27 April 2012, 01:33
I can't resist one more. And "sung" too. Dvorak Cello Concerto in a. The ultimate finale, written after the work was "done" and a tragic death occurred which inspired the new, much, much longer coda......it's hard to beat that one.
Jerry
You mean b. The A Major Cello Concerto is neither finished (by the composer) nor sung.
A work needn't use cyclic techniques (or even more than a hint of recall of earlier movements- in this case, a hint in its scherzo) - to qualify, I'd say - and I'd nominate Stenhammar 2, though written early in the 20th century, as a good competitor here...
Yes, Jim - b minor. Thanks. A lapse of an aging mind....... :'( :'(
Jerry
Actually, for anybody who's heard the Dvorak A Major Concerto in its orchestrated form, it is rather unusual in that it ends quietly. Perhaps that's a bit off-topic.
Allow me to nominate a work that is definitely unsung: Richard Hol's Second Symphony in D minor, Op. 44. A very tight, well-balanced work.
I fully agree with Ilja. And Hol's Nos. 1, 3 & 4 aren't bad either..!
Apart from Hol I like to nominate another unsung work, and that is Ryelandt 4. The finale definitely completes this marvellous symphony. One of these days I'll start a topic on Ryelandt. He is just great, but sooooo unsung.
I've developed the habit, Peter, of regarding your recommendations with the seriousness they deserve!
Heartily agree with you about Ryelandt. On the basis of the works that I do know (Symphony 4, the stately and gracious oratorio 'Agnes' with a rather good recording on Marco Polo, the Piano Quintet and String Quartet on a Phaedra disc) I'd say that Ryelandt is a splendid composer. I gather there are five symphonies, more chamber works, and quite a few choral works. I'd like to hear more of him. But, oops, I'm quite off thread here!
I think Magnard's Fourth has a wonderfully satisfying finale. I also love the finale from Staehle's only symphony as well as Biarent's only symphony. Both d'Indy's Second and Elgar's First have very powerful finales that bring everything full circle really well. Also the Fifth Symphonies of Stanford and Parry have really strong closing movements. The coda in the Stanford shows him making a rare escape from the shadow of Brahms, while the whole of Parry's Fifth shows Parry with his own voice without any hint of Brahms. Finally, the prize must go to Atterburg for the finale of his Third symphony, which is one of the most amazing symphonic movements ever written.
Here are a few of the 'Finales' that are convincing.
Berwald - Symphony No 3 (Singulare),
Glazunov - Symphony No. 5
Scharwenka - Piano concerto No 4 [the brilliant tarantella finale].
De Greef - Piano Concerto No. 1
Stojowski - Piano concerto No 2 [very unusual but still convincing to my ear! :)]
Prokofiev - Piano concerto No. 3
Borodin - Symphony No 1, 2
Moszkowski Piano Concerto for sure
And not very unsung but hard to exclude the Mahler 8th
Jerry
May I just suggest that we don't turn this thread into a list of 'my favourite finales'. After all, the 'finale problem' - as I understand it - was essentially this: given the weight of emphasis accorded by Beethoven to the finale of his 9th Symphony, how were the composers who followed him to respond (although perhaps Mozart had already 'set the trend' in his Jupiter Symphony)? Thus, we can see in Brahms various different answers (emulation in No.1; avoidance in No.2; fade-out in No.3; passacaglia in No.4) and in Bruckner (especially in the 5th and 8th Symphonies) attempts to out-do even Beethoven, but in purely instrumental terms.
I named Draeseke's 3rd (without explanation - very remiss of me) because of his novel solution to the problem; as Dr Alan Krueck wrote:
...he takes his concept of the tragic one formal step further than any other symphonist of the time, promoting not only cyclical development among the movements and providing a contrapuntal summary of themes in his finale, but actually returns to the symphony's introduction, with all its tragic foreboding, as a coda of tranquil repose at the work's conclusion.
http://www.draeseke.org/essays/zeitgeist_4.htm (http://www.draeseke.org/essays/zeitgeist_4.htm)
Any thoughts, anyone?
BTW... Fade-out for Brahms no.3? that applies only to the very end. The finale as a whole, a minor-mode sonata form (a resolution to major/minor clashes throughout the first movement, I agree) which additionally quotes material from the second movement (unless I'm getting confused here...) and only in that fade-out the first, is a more ambitious affair than that.
The passacaglia of the fourth (successor in some ways not just of Bach but of more recent instrumental works by e.g. Rheinberger, and predecessor of the finale of CV Stanford 5, iirc?... ) has, as Malcolm/Calum MacDonald has pointed out, its own distinguishing features (all the thematic cross-relations between it and the other movements one notices with continued acquaintance...), but I agree of course this is not the forum- still, if one can mention him to summarize his works in an over-negative sentence, a somewhat less brief single response might be allowable :D
While not as original and probably too simply retrospective (and perhaps too far into the 20th century...) the finale of Stenhammar's 2nd symphony (not to limit oneself to symphonic or even orchestral finales here, but anyway) does seem somehow especially effective. But you are right to raise the bar.
I'm glad someone mentioned Brahms' Fourth as that reminded me of the even more satisfying passacaglia finale from Zemlinsky's Bb major symphony.
I think the finale of Franz Schmidt's great 4th Symphony works extremely well. After the Scherzo implodes in on itself, the finale provides the perfect foil to its preceding movement, while also coming 'full circle' with a restatement of the solo trumpet theme at the end. This makes the whole symphony extremely satisfying to me and feels as if an inevitable path has been followed and a long journey satisfactorily completed.
Quote from: Delicious Manager on Wednesday 24 October 2012, 14:55
I think the finale of Franz Schmidt's great 4th Symphony works extremely well. After the Scherzo implodes in on itself, the finale provides the perfect foil to its preceding movement, while also coming 'full circle' with a restatement of the solo trumpet theme at the end. This makes the whole symphony extremely satisfying to me and feels as if an inevitable path has been followed and a long journey satisfactorily completed.
I forgot about this one too! Certainly there is no question that the Schmidt belongs in this category as well.
it _still_ seems to me that the best examples (pace Draeseke and Alan Krueck) I can think of from the Romantic period are no longer unsung (though some were until fairly recently). Mahler 6 (though likely a controversial nomination as not everyone will agree it _does_ hold together, and I won't waste the space of this forum arguing the point :) ) comes to mind for one (though perhaps not the best choice, but off top of head). Admittedly Ilja didn't pose the problem with any such requirement, but one sees the further problem. Hrm. "The best solution to the Finale Problem by an unsung composer"?...