Hello, I'm new here!
Rachmaninov's piano concertos are some of my favorite pieces and I am always on the lookout for unsung PCs (and other works for that matter) written in Rachmaninov's lush late-romantic style. A few I found are (off the top of my head):
-Andre Mathieu #4 in e minor
-Vittorio Giannini in d minor
-Medtner's 3 (not so unsung ::))
-Issay Dobrowen in c sharp minor
-Evgeny Golubev no 2
-Hamilton Harty in b minor
- Herbert Howells no 1 in c minor (and, to an extent, no 2)
-Lyapunov 1 and 2
-Healey Willan in c minor
-Respighi in a minor
-Bortkiewicz 1,2, and 3 (ditto)
-Alnaes in d flat major (my favorite key ;D)
-Theo Mackeben in b minor (available on collectioncb2's youtube channel, rather lighter piece, but...)
-York Bowen 1,2,3, and 4
-Martucci 2 (to an extent;the 2nd movement especially contains foretastes of Rach)
-Viktor Kosenko (available on youtube, beautiful piece)
-Montague Philips 1 and 2
I'm sure there are many more, and all of the above (except the Mackeben and the Kosenko) are available on cd, but the Golubev and Willan works are a bit more difficult to find. And we can expect Roger Sacheverell Coke's PCs to be in this style! I sure hope those (and his other pieces) get recorded. So, anyways, does anyone know of any other PCs besides the ones mentioned that are written in the style of Rachmaninov (or, remotely close to it ;))?
I think we've been here before, but in the hope that we might uncover something new....
Welcome, kyjo, by the way!
I would put into the list the Piano Concerto by Lao (Stanislao) Silesu, a musician called by someone (with some exaggeration) "the Sardinian Rachmaninoff" (BTW I see than one friend in the forum, instead, deemed the Silesu between Palmgren and Debussy, but I -IMHO- see/listen rather the Rachmaninoff association). There is a decent "Inedita" Cd.
Stanford's second one is very Rachmaninoffian and there are now, amazingly, two recordings available
I would nominate the following - quite in the Rachmaninoff style:
Vittorio Giannini (1903-1966) - Piano Concerto (recorded by Naxos)
Adolf Wiklund (1879-1950) - Piano Concertos 1&2 (Hyperion & Caprice)
(And, of course, Richard Addinsell's Warsaw Concerto)
Quote from: Jimfin on Sunday 05 August 2012, 13:25
Stanford's second one is very Rachmaninoffian and there are now, amazingly, two recordings available
There are actually THREE as this amazon link shows:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85Z%C3%95%C3%91&url=search-alias%3Dclassical&field-keywords=stanford+piano+concerto+no+2&x=10&y=18 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85Z%C3%95%C3%91&url=search-alias%3Dclassical&field-keywords=stanford+piano+concerto+no+2&x=10&y=18)
Quote from: alberto on Sunday 05 August 2012, 13:00
I would put into the list the Piano Concerto by Lao (Stanislao) Silesu...There is a decent "Inedita" Cd.
...with a dreadful-sounding orchestra!
Just go to the Hyperion website and run through the music samples for their Romantic Piano Concerto (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/s.asp?s=S_1&vw=dc) series. You'll find dozens more.
Thank you for all your suggestions. And by the way, I didn't realize that this topic had been brought up before, sorry Alan! A few PCs I forgot to add are:
Holbrooke 1 in f minor
Haydn Wood in d minor
Scharwenka 4
Thank you, febnyc, for mentioning the Wiklund PCs. I meant to put them on my list, but I forgot! And thanks, Jim, for mentioning the Stanford PC 2. Is his 3rd PC in the same style? Re the Wiklund PCs, how does the new Hyperion disc compare to the old recording on Caprice? And Silesu sounds very interesting.
Add Scharwenka 3 as one of my all time favorites
J
Stanford's 3rd concerto is similar in style to the 2nd and well worth investigating but it is less memorable melodically.
What about Medtner's other concertos? The slow movement of the 2nd concerto is particularly reminiscent of Rachmaninov.
Scriabin's wonderful concerto is also in the Rachmaninov vein (especially the big tune in the finale).
The topic is in danger of encompassing any and every late-Romantic piano concerto, if we're not careful - and becoming another, extremely boring, list. Rather than just listing possible contenders, may I suggest that contributors say why they consider a particular concerto Rachmaninoffian? Stanford PC2, for example, is in the same key as Rach PC2 and opens in similar fashion. Otherwise, it owes just as much to the German tradition in fact.
Stokowski 1 and 2 (does a third exist?)
Rozycki 1 and 2
Paderewski in a minor
Palmgren 1-5 (on hard to find Finlandia CDs;2 and 3 on fyrexia's YouTube channel)
Frank Merrick 1 and 2 (both available to download from this site;1 on jchbonnet's YouTube channel)
Artur Lemba 1-5 (1 on an OOP CD called Estonian Piano Concertos, others available on YouTube)
Halfdan Cleve 1-5 (available to download from this site; 3,4,5, and the 1st movement of 1 available on YouTube)
Ernst Linko 2 (available to download from this site, also on fyrexia's YouTube channel)
Janis Medins in c minor (available on YouTube; very beautiful piece)
Atterberg in b flat minor
Any more :)?
Alan, I sincerely apologize for my compulsive list-making. I realize that most, if not all, late-romantic piano concertos bear some similarity to Rachmaninov. All the concertos I have listed have multiple places that remind me of the great Russian master-soaring melodies, lush harmonies, drama, virtuosity, and most of all, those "goosebump" moments. IMO, we should be able to list concertos that have Rachmaninov-inspired moments, but have other influences as well, like Stanford 2. We all love making lists, don't we ;)
Absolutely no more lists, please! A couple of suggestions per contributor, with reasons, please - otherwise we're simply listing late-Romantic PCs.
Quote from: kyjo on Sunday 05 August 2012, 17:43
We all love making lists, don't we ;)
Try moderating them and ensuring they have some relevance to the topic in hand! For myself, I make my own lists for my own purposes, but I wouldn't (often) make them public...
Quote from: kyjo on Sunday 05 August 2012, 17:43
We all love making lists, don't we ;)
Not really. A list with no supporting information is as dry as old bones.
Thal
Quote from: kyjo on Sunday 05 August 2012, 15:47
Re the Wiklund PCs, how does the new Hyperion disc compare to the old recording on Caprice?
Sorry, but I have not heard the Hyperion. The Caprice performances are very good and satisfying enough for me.
I have both Wiklund CDs. You can remain totally content with the Caprice recordings.
Thanks Alan and febnyc for the advice on the Wiklund CDs. I think I'll get the Caprice recording, which includes the symphonic poem Night Tide and Sunrise (I think that's the title). I"ll skip the Hyperion CD, since the Konzerstuck is also on a Sterling CD with works by Ludvig Norman and Ture Rangstrom.
If you want to know more about the background of PC4 by André Mathieu - which is indeed very much in the style of Rachmaninov (in fact the great man declared the young Mathieu to be a genius) - then do follow this intriguing link:
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=202516 (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=202516)
Mathieu's Concerto de Quebec is also very much in the style.
Andre Mathieu is a very intriguing figure. I cannot thank Alain Lefevre enough or bringing this wonderful music to light. Maybe he should join this forum! Since the Concerto de Quebec is his third, I am wondering what the first and second sound like. Does anyone know if they exist, and if they do, of any plans of Lefevre (or someone else) to record them? Now if someone could only do justice to Roger Sacheverell Coke like Lefevre has done to Mathieu!
Just a brief, skeptical note. Rachmaninoff is one of my absolute favorite composers and I can't really think of any other composer's music that really sounds like his rather than having a very general stylistic affinity (which of course brings us to the Hyperion series). The closest I can think of is the Romantic Concerto of Joseph Marx, which has some sporadically Rachmaninoffian passages, the slow movement in particular with the last few bars sounding like the real thing. SVR apart, it's a magnificent work like its piano and orchestra sibling, the Castelli Romani.
Some of Nikolai Tcherepnin's solo piano music could be mistaken for Rachmaninoff.
Quote from: kyjo on Sunday 05 August 2012, 18:14
Thanks Alan and febnyc for the advice on the Wiklund CDs. I think I'll get the Caprice recording, which includes the symphonic poem Night Tide and Sunrise (I think that's the title). I"ll skip the Hyperion CD, since the Konzerstuck is also on a Sterling CD with works by Ludvig Norman and Ture Rangstrom.
kyjo: Actual title of the work is
Summer Night and Sunrise. Regardless, it is a beautiful piece and, as you conclude, makes the Caprice disc that much more desirable.
I can't believe I forgot Marx, one of my favorite unsungs! Absolutely gorgeously orchestrated music for when you feel like a good wallow (but it's more than that).As to the Wiklund symphonic poem, I must have been thinking of particular Sibelius symphonic poem... ;D. I'll definitely put the Caprice CD on my want list! Thank you very much for your recommendations and comments,guys. I never expected my first experience starting a thread to get so many wonderful replies :).
A minor quibble. The Alnæs concerto is in D Major. You probably got the key confused with its Hyperion disc-mate, the Sinding concerto in D-flat. And the finale of Scharwenka PC 1 is Rachmaninoff before Rachmaninoff was Rachmaninoff. Also, Rachmaninoff's prodigious technique is a direct pedagogical descendant of Henselt (through Nikolai Zverev) and several passages in the Henselt F minor concerto are direct precursors to Rachmaninoff (although not necessarily the concertos). I also find much in Anton Rubinstein to presage Rachmaninoff, particularly the coda of the first movement of PC 5.
Medtner 2 deserves some mention because of its dedication to Rachmaninoff at about the same time, I think, as Rachmaninoff's 4th concerto (in one of its versions) was being composed and dedicated to Medtner. If I have that anywhere near right. (Of the works Medtner dedicated to Rachmaninoff I prefer an earlier piano sonata - of one movement and about the same length. :) ) (It's also, I guess, the only one of Medtner's concertos arguably in more than one movement- though the 1st and 3rd are often subdivided into several, they're played without any sort of break and the 1st especially is a fairly self-contained form, iirc..., so while they all use some form of "cyclic technique" here the movements being recalled in the finale- nice touches, those- are actually from different movements.)
JimL- you remind me of a few questions- e.g. Rachmaninoff's musical training and background (not a question, as phrased) - hrm. Unlike of, e.g., Sibelius and some others of Russia and Scandinavia in that and earlier generations, did not study in Europe, it seems (when e.g. Tchaikovsky comes up I keep remembering the combination of his Russian and German musical background myself, for instance, maybe wrongly though...)
Related? .. Anyone know any piano concertos with (musical, more than inspirational) connections to other sides of Rachmaninoff's output (e.g. the three/four sonatas, the symphonies including but not limited to The Bells - not speaking of Holbrooke's The Bells or if so, only if it's musically related as well as Poe-facedly so..), - etc. ...?
Another string where Roger Sacheverell Coke is mentioned with enthusiasm, and yet not one (as far as I can tell) piece of his music has ever been recorded. Not one! Does anyone know why this is? I am as keen as everyone else to hear his music!
[quote
Quote from: Christopher on Monday 06 August 2012, 07:07
Another string where Roger Sacheverell Coke is mentioned with enthusiasm, and yet not one (as far as I can tell) piece of his music has ever been recorded. Not one! Does anyone know why this is? I am as keen as everyone else to hear his music!
Howe link=topic=3621.msg39049#msg39049 date=1344172042]
Quote from: alberto on Sunday 05 August 2012, 13:00
I would put into the list the Piano Concerto by Lao (Stanislao) Silesu...There is a decent "Inedita" Cd.
...with a dreadful-sounding orchestra!
You are right, but it would be very unlikely to have another recording (or even a broadcast).
[/quote]
Hi Alberto - I don't quite understand your reply....
Sorry. Misuse by me of the "quote" function.
I was just trying to say that I agree with Alan Howe about the pedestrian orchestral playing in the only recording of Silesu's Piano Concerto.
In reply to kyjo, yes a third Stojowski piano concerto does exist and there is also a nother substantial work for piano and orchestra by him. Both are in MS. I am not in London at present so cannot access my notes but believe they are in a New York colletion.
Stojowski PC 3 has been mentioned in an earlier thread. Apparently a page is missing towards the end of the finale that needs to be reconstructed. And apparently nobody has mentioned the concertos of York Bowen, who has been called "The English Rachmaninoff".
Quote from: JimL on Monday 06 August 2012, 12:37
And apparently nobody has mentioned the concertos of York Bowen, who has been called "The English Rachmaninoff".
Except in the very first post. :P
Well, you see, people just don't read lists...
My bad. I stopped reading when I detected the Alnæs boo-boo. It is indeed too bad that the Sinding D-flat Major Concerto isn't particularly Rachmaninovian. Actually, I may break that CD out and play the Alnæs and Sinding concertos again. It's certainly been a few years since I've listened to either one. And, while I'm on the subject of Alnæs, I heartily recommend his 2nd Symphony in E-flat. A most impressive work.
Quote from: JimL on Monday 06 August 2012, 12:37
Stojowski PC 3 has been mentioned in an earlier thread. Apparently a page is missing towards the end of the finale that needs to be reconstructed. And apparently nobody has mentioned the concertos of York Bowen, who has been called "The English Rachmaninoff".
I know that he was - but then so was Richard (Tony) Arnell, who was hardly noted for his piano music; the point of most such comparisons seems not to extend beyond proving the old adage that they are by nature odious. Just imagine some hack trying to make something of a name for him/herself by describing some composer or other as "the French Elgar" or "the Swedish Granados"; dumb or what?...
Australia's Miriam Hyde - her two piano concertos (which I own on an old ABC Classics release, which I see is no longer available on Amazon) are extremely Rachmaninov-ian, and quite lovely. I cannot honestly say I recall very much about them (it's been several years since last I renewed my acquaintance), but I enjoyed them a great deal at the time of listening.
Quote from: Ser Amantio di Nicolao on Monday 06 August 2012, 15:20
Australia's Miriam Hyde - her two piano concertos ... are extremely Rachmaninov-ian, and quite lovely. I cannot honestly say I recall very much about.
That hits the nail squarely on the head: what distinguishes Rachmaninov from all the pale imitators is that only someone with tin ears could hear the music of Rachmaninov and
not recall very much about it. I can't remember which modernist composer it was who irritatedly remarked that the trouble with Rachmaninov is that his music is so damned memorable.
Quote from: ahinton on Monday 06 August 2012, 14:51
the point of most such comparisons seems not to extend beyond proving the old adage that they are by nature odious. Just imagine some hack trying to make something of a name for him/herself by describing some composer or other as "the French Elgar" or "the Swedish Granados"; dumb or what?...
Quite right. The tendency to categorize composers that way is lazy and silly: such comparisons are at best superficial and, at worst, downright misleading. Moreover, they obscure from the casual reader of such piffle the fact that some of these composers have real individuality, if only one can be bothered to do them the courtesy of listening to their music. No-one who had actually listened to any Medtner could possibly describe him as 'the Russian Brahms'.
Quote from: Lionel Harrsion on Monday 06 August 2012, 16:07
Quote from: Ser Amantio di Nicolao on Monday 06 August 2012, 15:20
Australia's Miriam Hyde - her two piano concertos ... are extremely Rachmaninov-ian, and quite lovely. I cannot honestly say I recall very much about.
That hits the nail squarely on the head: what distinguishes Rachmaninov from all the pale imitators is that only someone with tin ears could hear the music of Rachmaninov and not recall very much about it. I can't remember which modernist composer it was who irritatedly remarked that the trouble with Rachmaninov is that his music is so damned memorable.
True, but it's nice to have at least a vague comparison. It's easier for me to say "Hyde reminds me of Rachmaninov" than it is for me to say "Hyde wrote very pleasant, rather unmemorable late-Romantic music". The latter is a decent benchmark, but has the potential to be wide of the mark. (Stenammer, too, wrote very pleasant, rather unmemorable late-Romantic music, and I quite enjoy his work. But he and Hyde are cut from two different stripes of cloth.) The former is imperfect, but has its uses. It calls to mind a sound-world almost instantly.
I'm listening to Hyde Piano Concerto No.2 on Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqGMB68U2gw) right now. There are a few echoes of Rachmaninov, but it's a very attractive late-Romantic work (1934/5), contemporary with Rachmaninov's Paganini Rhapsody.
Quote from: Ser Amantio di Nicolao on Monday 06 August 2012, 16:33
Stenammer, too, wrote very pleasant, rather unmemorable late-Romantic music...
Really? Who else could have penned Stenhammar's totally original and memorable 2nd Symphony?
Yes, Jim, I did get the Alnaes and Sinding concertos confused. I agree with you that the Sinding is disappointingly un-Rachy ;); I much prefer the Alnaes, who symphonies are also wonderful. Thanks for bringing up Miriam Hyde; her concertos are indeed quite in the Rach vein. And I'm sorry, Jim, that I didn't make the inclusion of Bowen more obvious-he definitely deserves a place in this thread. And, Ser Amantio di Nicolao, if you haven't come to appreciate Stenhammar's music, try Stig Westerberg's
marvelous recording of the second symphony; he brings an almost Brucknerian (apologies if this is the wrong adjective) grandeur to the piece, which Jarvi misses in his needlessly rushed recording. It's hard to find a copy on US Amazon, but UK Amazon has plenty of copies. Sorry for getting off-topic!
I decided to make a separate post for further comments :D. Good to know that Stojowski 3 is in performable condition; I'm sure someone could reconstruct that missing page. I'd also like to mention the Poulenc PC of 1951(?). Probably not unsung by our standards, but compared to the Double PC, it definitely is. I actually prefer this piece to the Double PC; I find the latter kind of shallow and corny. Anyway, the PC is not what you would expect from Poulenc. The first movement has the long-breathed melodies (but not nearly as memorable as Rach) and spine-tingling (perhaps too strong a word) climaxes of Rach but without Sergei's overt emotionalism or Slavic soul. The slow movement again pays homage to the great Russian master, but with perhaps a touch of Mahler (!) to the mix. The cheeky finale, "Rondo a la francaise, though, is pure Poulenc- a romp if there ever was one. Anyway, if you haven't heard this piece, I strongly suggest you do; it will give you a more well-rounded view of Poulenc. Get the Pascal Roge performance on Decca- he is ideal in French repertoire.
Quote from: Lionel Harrsion on Monday 06 August 2012, 16:07
Quote from: Ser Amantio di Nicolao on Monday 06 August 2012, 15:20
Australia's Miriam Hyde - her two piano concertos ... are extremely Rachmaninov-ian, and quite lovely. I cannot honestly say I recall very much about.
That hits the nail squarely on the head: what distinguishes Rachmaninov from all the pale imitators is that only someone with tin ears could hear the music of Rachmaninov and not recall very much about it. I can't remember which modernist composer it was who irritatedly remarked that the trouble with Rachmaninov is that his music is so damned memorable.
Sounds like something Stravinsky might have said. The two never met until less than a year before Rachmaninoff died, even though they were relatively near neighbors.
Yes, Jim, that quote does indeed sound very Stravinskian. Remember, Stravinsky once called Rachmaninov "a six and a half foot tall scowl"! I'm not surprised that there was bad blood between the two; their music has almost opposite characteristics (well, except for Stravinsky's early works, like the Symphony in E Flat, the Firebird, etc.)!
Stravinsky's E-flat Symphony is firmly in the Russian Romantic idiom of his teachers, (R-K, etc.). Firebird, OTOH, is in more of an "Impressionist" idiom in its harmonic language and orchestration. No doubt the move to Paris had something to do with that.
Sorry if this is too close to a list ;):
-Quite sung, yes, I know, but the slow movement of Shostakovich's PC 2 pays obvious homage to Rach in its gentle melancholy, but like in the Poulenc, you won't find Rach's outpourings of emotion here. The slow movement of Shosty's PC 1, to a lesser extent, is also in this style. But if you really want to hear Shosty sound like Rach, try his mini PC from the film music to Assault on the Beautiful Gorky. Heavens knows why this isn't played as much as the Warsaw Concerto!
-Another, very sung, example, is the slow movement of Ravel PC in G. The flute solo brings reminders of the opening of the slow movement of Rach PC 2 (the most heartbreakingly beautiful piece of music ever written), and there is a Bachian gravitas combined with a French coloring and a Russian emotion that is simply magical. The outer movements couldn't be different ;).
-Someone mentioned the Scriabin PC. This piece definitely deserves to get more attention in the concert hall, along with his symphonies.
-The solo piano works of Nikolai (not Alexander) Tcherepnin were also mentioned. He also wrote a PC, which is on a hard to find CD and is also on fyrexia's Youtube channel (with score).
-Also the PC1 of the Georgian composer Otar Taktakishvilli. It's available on CD coupled with Balakirev's Tamara. I haven't heard his other 3 PCs (all 4 are on fyrexia's Youtube channel), but it would be wonderful if they were in the same Rach-esque style of the first.
I hope this doesn't get classified as a list ;D ;D!
The fellow who complained about Rachmaninoff's memorability was Schoenberg acolyte Eduard Steuermann. Interestingly, Rudolf Kolisch, Difficult Arnold's violinist brother in law, greatly admired R., and for what it's worth Bartok loved the Paganini Rhapsody. I suspect Busoni would have as well.
Quote from: kyjo on Monday 06 August 2012, 19:29
I hope this doesn't get classified as a list
No, that's much better. However, we are talking about
unsung PCs here, so the Shostakovich and Ravel PCs are really off-topic.
I found the Dobrowen on YouTube, and it's quite lovely, but can ANYBODY get me a tempo indication for the Finale? There is nothing more irritating than the only CD available calling it just "Finale". And I don't think the score is available from any source I can find.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Monday 06 August 2012, 17:05
Quote from: Ser Amantio di Nicolao on Monday 06 August 2012, 16:33
Stenammer, too, wrote very pleasant, rather unmemorable late-Romantic music...
Really? Who else could have penned Stenhammar's totally original and memorable 2nd Symphony?
I...er, listened to it this weekend, and I'm afraid I don't remember it, sorry. ;D
Not to get too far off the thread, but honestly, Brahms comes to mind when I listen to Stenhammer. They're hardly identical, of course, but I hear echoes of Brahms in some of Stenhammer's earlier music. (That said, the piece that really struck me was the second piano concerto, which I quite liked, and which is unlike just about anything I know.)
I'm afraid I sacrificed him on the altar of making-a-point; a dangerous thing to do, I know. I was mostly trying to think of an un-Rachmaninovian late Romantic.
Quote from: JimL on Monday 06 August 2012, 20:49
I found the Dobrowen on YouTube, and it's quite lovely, but can ANYBODY get me a tempo indication for the Finale? There is nothing more irritating than the only CD available calling it just "Finale". And I don't think the score is available from any source I can find.
The score was published by Universal Edition although the two piano score is handwritten.
The ending of the 2nd movement is marked Presto and the finale is just marked dotted crotchet = 76.
Thal
Quote from: X. Trapnel on Monday 06 August 2012, 19:42
The fellow who complained about Rachmaninoff's memorability was Schoenberg acolyte Eduard Steuermann.
Ah-ha, thanks, X. Trapnel. I had a feeling it was someone connected to the 2nd Viennese School but I knew it wasn't Schoenberg, Berg or Webern. I can't remember whether I ever knew it was actually Steuermann. Old age, ??? ?
Quote from: Ser Amantio di Nicolao on Monday 06 August 2012, 20:55
I...er, listened to it this weekend, and I'm afraid I don't remember it, sorry.
Oh dear. Stenhammar 2 has one of the most memorable openings of any unsung symphony and is written in a nordic idiom of a highly individual cast. Here are some insightful reviews:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2003/oct03/STENHAMMAR2swedishsocjwoolf.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2003/oct03/STENHAMMAR2swedishsocjwoolf.htm)
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/April%201980/85/807778/STENHAMMAR.+Symphony+No.2+in+G+minor%2C+Op.+34.+Stockholm+Philharmonic+Orchestra+con+ducted+by+Stig+Westerberg.+Caprice+CAP1151+%28479%29+Notes+included.+UK+distributor%3A+Conifer+Records (http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/April%201980/85/807778/STENHAMMAR.+Symphony+No.2+in+G+minor%2C+Op.+34.+Stockholm+Philharmonic+Orchestra+con+ducted+by+Stig+Westerberg.+Caprice+CAP1151+%28479%29+Notes+included.+UK+distributor%3A+Conifer+Records).
To say nothing of the absolutely irresistable scherzo; indeed the whole symphony is brimming over with good tunes. Stenhammar doubters should also try the Serenade.
Agreed. And the early, irresistibly gorgeous Florez and Blanzeflor for baritone & orchestra.
and my own favorite work, his string quartet in A minor...
his 2nd piano concerto I do find -- undermemorable. But I may not have heard the best performance or recording. (The 1st concerto's finale opens with one of those themes, on the other hand, that tend to stick with me.)
Well a lot of compositions has already been mentioned but I would like to add some:
Gabriel Pierne PC (1886) - 1st movement sounds like a sketch to famous Rach's 2nd PC
Evgeniy Svetlanov PC (1976) - very melodic, very russian, sounds a lot like Rachmaninov
Paul Constantinescu PC (1952) 50% Rachmaninov 50% Vladigerov
There are also two PCs (1927, 1943) composed by Joseph Marx's pupil Richard Flury, PC by Eduard Künneke (1935) and Alain Payette (2000) which are close in style.
And if you don't mind a little bit more lightweighted, kind of cinematic music a la Richard Arnell then you would proabably also like Leroy Anderson's PC (1953) and Gottfried Gasanov two PCs (1948, 1959).
Quote from: thalbergmad on Monday 06 August 2012, 21:20
Quote from: JimL on Monday 06 August 2012, 20:49
I found the Dobrowen on YouTube, and it's quite lovely, but can ANYBODY get me a tempo indication for the Finale? There is nothing more irritating than the only CD available calling it just "Finale". And I don't think the score is available from any source I can find.
The score was published by Universal Edition although the two piano score is handwritten.
The ending of the 2nd movement is marked Presto and the finale is just marked dotted crotchet = 76.
Thal
Interesting...it appears to be a 4 movement work, at least as presented on YouTube. Are you sure it isn't the 3rd movement that ends in a Presto?
Yes, the second movement is Scherzo: Presto, the third movement is Intermezzo: Andante sostenuto (according to a source online (probably taken from liner-notes) that gives "Finale" for the finale)...
By talking about Shosty and Ravel, I was breaking the rules of a thread I started called "UNSUNG Rachaninoffian Piano Concertos" ;). And Stenhammar is much closer to Brahms than Medtner; I think Taneyev is much more appropriate to be called the "Russian Brahms" ???. Anyway, enough about Stenhammar- he is not Rachy enough :D. And yes, the Dobrowen is a beautiful and powerful piece. A shame he didn't write more than he did :(.
A look at some of Dobrowen's solo piano works, even including a "Märchen-sonate" (Ballad/folktale-sonata - not March-sonata!- Sibley has this wrong...) etc., does keep reminding me of Medtner if only from those titles, though, true.
Speaking of slow movements where the rest aren't, and though it's not solo -- what about Arnold's Concerto for for Two Pianos?
Oh, and Leroy Anderson's, especially in the 1st movement. I have no doubt he was channeling Rach here.
Quoteand Gottfried Gasanov two PCs (1948, 1959)
I've never heard of Gasanov. Where can I hear some of his music, please?
Quote from: kyjo on Tuesday 07 August 2012, 01:53
And Stenhammar is much closer to Brahms than Medtner...I think Taneyev is much more appropriate to be called the "Russian Brahms"
Stenhammar's early music certainly shows some Brahmsian influence (hardly a profound insight when you consider how many composers Brahms influenced), but there are others in the mix too: his 1st Symphony, for example, shows the clear imprint of Bruckner. Yet his mature music is utterly original. As for applying the description "Russian Brahms" to Taneyev, well that's simply miles too glib, mainly because Taneyev is a great composer in his own right.
How about Brahms as the "German Taneyev"? ::)
Quote from: Gareth Vaughan on Tuesday 07 August 2012, 13:27
Quoteand Gottfried Gasanov two PCs (1948, 1959)
I've never heard of Gasanov. Where can I hear some of his music, please?
Years ago I've heard both concerts live here in Russia.
1st PC is available on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=987dKyqDFdU
Thank you very much.
Thank you very much, Fronder, for your examples. I had forgotten about the Svetlanov! Too bad it's such a short piece. You said "lightweight, cinematic a la Richard Arnell". Surely you mean Richard ADDINSELL, composer of the Warsaw Concerto :o; ARNELL's music is anything but lightweight! I'd like to add a few more examples:
Tyzen Hsiao PC: This Taiwanese composer (there aren't very many of them!) has earned the nickname "The Taiwanese Rachmaninov" because of his lyrical, romantic idiom. It was available on a 2CD set of his orchestral music, but it's now OOP, but you can find his music on an mp3 download of his orchestral music (available on Amazon) and on YouTube.
Villa-Lobos 5 PCs: His PCs combine Brazilian exoticism (not too much, though) with a Rachmaninoffian lyricism. The're not particularly memorable but their neglect (along with his symphonies) is inexcusable, with only one complete set: Christina Ortiz's Double Decca set!
Another Brazilian: Heckel Tavare's PC on Brazilian Forms. It's available on a CD with Albeniz's A minor Concerto. I'd very much like to hear his symphonies.
If you want to get into the Warsaw Concerto (not to mention that Shostakovish piece), there's of course a number of other "movie piano concertos" out there -- I own two separate discs dedicated to them and they aren't all the same:
http://www.amazon.com/Warsaw-Concerto-Richard-Addinsell/dp/B0000060DC/
http://www.amazon.com/Classic-Movie-Concertos/dp/B00004S1KB/
Is the Warsaw Concerto really a concerto - or just a piece of enjoyable kitsch composed for a film? Anything recorded by Richard Clayderman...well, say no more ::)
I have the general feeling that this thread is now scraping the barrel. Many (most) of the works mentioned have very little to do with Rachmaninov save a general late-Romantic tuneful lushness.
Richard Clayderman? Scraping the bottom of the barrel? Surely no connection. ;)
Quote from: Alan Howe on Monday 06 August 2012, 22:27
Quote from: Ser Amantio di Nicolao on Monday 06 August 2012, 20:55
I...er, listened to it this weekend, and I'm afraid I don't remember it, sorry.
Oh dear. Stenhammar 2 has one of the most memorable openings of any unsung symphony and is written in a nordic idiom of a highly individual cast. Here are some insightful reviews:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2003/oct03/STENHAMMAR2swedishsocjwoolf.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2003/oct03/STENHAMMAR2swedishsocjwoolf.htm)
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/April%201980/85/807778/STENHAMMAR.+Symphony+No.2+in+G+minor%2C+Op.+34.+Stockholm+Philharmonic+Orchestra+con+ducted+by+Stig+Westerberg.+Caprice+CAP1151+%28479%29+Notes+included.+UK+distributor%3A+Conifer+Records (http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/April%201980/85/807778/STENHAMMAR.+Symphony+No.2+in+G+minor%2C+Op.+34.+Stockholm+Philharmonic+Orchestra+con+ducted+by+Stig+Westerberg.+Caprice+CAP1151+%28479%29+Notes+included.+UK+distributor%3A+Conifer+Records).
Thanks very much - I shall peruse them this evening when I have a chance.
I wish I could suggest some other concertos for this thread, to pull it back on topic. But all of the other Romantic things I can think of tend to be not very Rachmaninovian.
It's not a problem. Threads have to end somewhere!
Gosh, I like lists! :); what about lists with 2 reasons why they are Rachmaninovian, as a compromise, to narrow it down a bit; but the moderation is getting a little too prescriptive Alan,for me anyway, especially as I have already been moderated TWICE over Siegfried Wagner( with a significant concession, i admit and for which i am thankful:) in having his seperate thread),where it was twice indicated that the thread "move on"; both comments where re Siegfriend's (homo)sexuality, which u will no doubt say is irrelevant :-[ to the music, though "Sehnsucht" is documentedly autobiographical,to an extent anyway. I am thinking of leaving this forum because of this, which is sad, because i like it generally and have been here since about 1994 on the old Raff and Unsung forum :-[Steve Benson
Sorry if we're scraping the bottom of the barrel, Alan. Perhaps we could discuss concertos that are precursors to Rach (I mentioned Martucci 2; Rubinstein 5 and the Henselt were also mentioned). Or should I open up another thread? What do think the destiny of this thread should be, Alan? I really enjoyed other member's comments and I really don't want it to end :(.
Oh, I almost forgot. There is also a D minor PC by japanese singer\actor Yūzō Kayama that sounds as rachmaninovian as A. Mathieu's works.
I have no problems at all with folk starting new threads. It's just that the moderators have a clear responsibility to keep existing threads within reasonable bounds.
As for Siegfried Wagner, I don't intend to repeat the reasons behind my moderator's comments here save to say that any exploration of his music on its own terms fell beyond the remit of a thread which was specifically about the relationship of his music to his father's. Any other perceived reasons for my actions are entirely without foundation, as any perusal of what I actually wrote will prove.
As precursors, I think someone already mentioned Scharwenka 4 and I would also nominate Scharwenka 3.
Jerry
It was Scharwenka 1. Scharwenka 4 is roughly contemporaneous with Rach 3 (1908-9).
Actually all four of his Scharwenka's PCs are on my desert island list.......
J
Fronder, where can Yuzo Kayama's PC be accessed? Thank you :)!
You can buy Yuzo Kayama's PC at Amazon.jp here (note that he also goes by the name of Dan Kohsaku):
http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E5%BC%BE%E5%8E%9A%E4%BD%9C-%E7%88%B6%E3%81%AB%E6%8D%A7%E3%81%92%E3%82%8B%E3%83%94%E3%82%A2%E3%83%8E%E3%82%B3%E3%83%B3%E3%83%81%E3%82%A7%E3%83%AB%E3%83%88-%E5%8A%A0%E5%B1%B1%E9%9B%84%E4%B8%89/dp/B00005V4DN/ref=sr_1_23?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1344443431&sr=1-23 (http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E5%BC%BE%E5%8E%9A%E4%BD%9C-%E7%88%B6%E3%81%AB%E6%8D%A7%E3%81%92%E3%82%8B%E3%83%94%E3%82%A2%E3%83%8E%E3%82%B3%E3%83%B3%E3%83%81%E3%82%A7%E3%83%AB%E3%83%88-%E5%8A%A0%E5%B1%B1%E9%9B%84%E4%B8%89/dp/B00005V4DN/ref=sr_1_23?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1344443431&sr=1-23)
Thank you very much, Alan! ;D
In 1975 I heard the premier of Richard Faith's Piano Concerto 2. It includes a couple of Big Tunes that I thought were memorable and reminiscent of pre-WWI Rachmaninov.
Oh yes, I've heard of Richard Faith. How lucky you were to have attended the premiere! Anywhere where any of Faith's music can be accessed? And I'm very glad to see this thread isn't losing steam :). I have two more Japanese examples and one Chinese (you can probably guess which one this is!)
Fumio Hayasaka PC: The moody first movement, especially, has lost of Rachian gestures. The second, and final movement, though, is a quick-witted, infectiously bright romp. Kind of like the Poulenc PC, eh? It's available on a Naxos CD with two other pieces by Hayasaka.
Sadao Bekku PC: Surprisingly Rachmaninoffian for when it was written. You can find it on a Camerata CD with his Symphony 5 and Two Prieres for Orchestra. BTW, his first and second symphonies are available on a Naxos CD which is, strangely, only available on Japanese Amazon. Hopefully Naxos will make this recording available in the US, like they did the Hashimoto Symphony 2 disc.
Yep, you guessed it! Xian Xinghai's Yellow River PC: Don't be put off by the inclusion of Chinese instruments here. They are not overused at all an give the work a nice Oriental flavor to add to the Rachy proceedings. There's quite a lot of recordings available if it: one on Naxos, one by Lang Lang (!) on DG, and one coupled to his Yellow River CANTATA. Wikipedia lists two symphonies by him. Hopefully Naxos' small Chinese Series, still in its infancy, will take flight by recording these (that is, if the Wikipedia article is accurate ::)).
The Kohsaku/Kayama PC1 is really a piece of fake classical music - very Rachmaninovian at the outset, but suddenly lurching into faux-Gershwin before returning to the opening material - which is repeated fff ad infinitum, ad nauseam. Absolutely gorgeous, but far too full-on - and the coda to first movement is a piece of grand larceny! The slow movement starts with woodwind phrases against a background of shimmering strings; it's not really like Rachmaninov at all even when the piano enters and includes an absolutely mad sudden accelerando before again returning to more dreamy and then more ecstatic-sounding material. It's really just a series of unconnected episodes, beautifully orchestrated, but unconvincing when compared to 'proper music'. The finale starts and continues throughout in rather jolly early 19thC Germanic-sounding fashion, almost as if Beeethoven had decided to put in an appearance - an idiom totally at odds with what has come so far, but actually rather more integrated in feel.
So, all in all, not a piece to be taken seriously at all. But great fun? Yes, indeed!
Quote from: Alan Howe on Thursday 09 August 2012, 10:21
The Kohsaku/Kayama PC1 is really a piece of fake classical music - very Rachmaninovian at the outset, but suddenly lurching into faux-Gershwin before returning to the opening material - which is repeated fff ad infinitum, ad nauseam. Absolutely gorgeous, but far too full-on - and the coda to first movement is a piece of grand larceny! The slow movement starts with woodwind phrases against a background of shimmering strings; it's not really like Rachmaninov at all even when the piano enters and includes an absolutely mad sudden accelerando before again returning to more dreamy and then more ecstatic-sounding material. It's really just a series of unconnected episodes, beautifully orchestrated, but unconvincing when compared to 'proper music'. The finale starts and continues throughout in rather jolly early 19thC Germanic-sounding fashion, almost as if Beeethoven had decided to put in an appearance - an idiom totally at odds with what has come so far, but actually rather more integrated in feel.
So, all in all, not a piece to be taken seriously at all. But great fun? Yes, indeed!
Second movement resembles to me Rach's rhapsody, op.43. But overall I agree with your opinion - not strictly academical but very fun indeed.
Quote from: kyjo on Thursday 09 August 2012, 05:01
Fumio Hayasaka PC: The moody first movement, especially, has lost of Rachian gestures. The second, and final movement, though, is a quick-witted, infectiously bright romp. Kind of like the Poulenc PC, eh? It's available on a Naxos CD with two other pieces by Hayasaka.
1st movement is exceptionally good. Thanks for a recommendation.
That Kohsaku/Kayama PC sounds quite interesting ;D! Are the PCs of George Lloyd in a Rachmaninoffian style? I haven't heard them yet, but I think they might be. Another example I though of is Arno Babadjanian's Herioc Ballade (a concerto in all but name) for piano and orchestra, available on an OOP ASV CD with Tjeknavorian's (better known as a conductor) PC and on Youtube. Also the PC of Witold Maliszewski, available to download here. Keep 'em coming ;D!
Alan has described the Kohsaku Piano Concerto very well. It's pastiche, I hope, but of quite a high order, very well orchestrated and the performers go at it as if their lives depended upon it. At that level is a hugely enjoyable romp but, at the risk of sounding pompously sniffy, it's not something which one can take seriously in the way that one can Schmidt-Kowalski's modern romantc-style compositions for example. Think of it more as a grand version of one of those cinematic concertos from the 1940s and 50s. The Beethovenesque finale in particular works very well and could be quite convincing at that level even though the stylistic lurch from what goes before it is ear-jarringly bizarre. All that said, it's a fun listen.
One essential question is about the meaning of the Rachmaninoffian concertos? With wide Slavic-style themes, tuneful and memorable melodies, sense of nostalgy? In that sense there is evident difference between nos 2, 3 and 1, 4. Meself I expect that members think mostly about Rachmaninov of nos 2 and 3. Perhaps some fragments of the Paganini Rhapsody. Good examples of that understanding are also two arrangemsnts: Concerto Elegiaque (based on his Piano Trio) and "Concerto no. 5" based on the Second Symphony.
I can see that majority of examples given by participants of that discussion are concertos, well, melodious, some of bravura character but with no such wide breathe, without that sort of melancholy or so. Of course many of them I lke very much but in my mind only a few of them can be called Rachmaninoffian.
From the Polish music I can name Concerto no. 2 by Kazimierz Guzowski (of 60-70s) that consists fragments written in evident style (pastiche?) of Rachmaninov.
Absolutely right, Marek. In fact, the only pieces that are truly Rachmaninovian are probably respectful copies (à la Mathieu) or pastiches (à la Kohsaku).
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Friday 10 August 2012, 08:13
Alan has described the Kohsaku Piano Concerto very well. It's pastiche, I hope, but of quite a high order, very well orchestrated and the performers go at it as if their lives depended upon it. At that level is a hugely enjoyable romp but, at the risk of sounding pompously sniffy, it's not something which one can take seriously in the way that one can Schmidt-Kowalski's modern romantc-style compositions for example. Think of it more as a grand version of one of those cinematic concertos from the 1940s and 50s. The Beethovenesque finale in particular works very well and could be quite convincing at that level even though the stylistic lurch from what goes before it is ear-jarringly bizarre. All that said, it's a fun listen.
Speaking of fun listens...you're reminding me of Michael Easton's
Piano Concerto on Australian Themes, which I have long owned on an old Naxos disc. Granted, it's been ages since I listened to it, but I seem to recall it being a.) a bit kitschy, and b.) a cracking good time all 'round.
http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.554368 (http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.554368)
It's rather more neo-Romantic than neo-Rachmaninov, but still.
In a more "popular" vein, there's Michael Nyman's The Piano Concerto, available on a Naxos CD. Also, the Nigel Hess PC, played by Lang Lang on a rather short CD on the UCJ label (available on UK Amazon). Maybe not the most Rachmaninoffian concerto mentioned thus far, but has anyone else heard Rudolf Tobias' PC? It's a rather compact (just under 20 minutes) piece, completed by Vardo Rasmussen (IIRC). I listened to it on 1musikpensionaer's now deleted YouTube channel (Why were these videos deleted? His channel contained a treasure trove of unsung music of late-romantic and tonal modern music >:( :(.). I was quite blown away by it! I think its secret to success is its compactness; it doesn't sprawl to excessive lengths like many late-romantic pieces do. I think it's available for download from this site. The finale, particularly, will keep you at the edge of your seat. BTW, has anyone heard Manolis Kalomiris' Symphonic Concerto for piano and orchestra (it was on 1musikpensionaer's channel also)? It might be Rachmaninoffian!
We're way off-topic here. Simply posting about vaguely late Romantic-sounding PCs which one hasn't heard isn't very helpful. Let's restrict this thread to contributions from members who have actually hear a concerto that fits the bill...
Right, Alan. Tobias' PC is just such a great piece; I had to mention it :)!
The Piano Concerto of Paul Kletzki (yes, the conductor) qualifies I think. It is a bit advanced in tonality, or post-tonality, but is a powerful twentieth-century work. Quite Rachmaninoffian, I would say.
http://www.amazon.com/Piano-Concerto-Three-Preludes-Piec/dp/B0034JV6DE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1344728196&sr=8-1&keywords=paul+kletzki+naxos (http://www.amazon.com/Piano-Concerto-Three-Preludes-Piec/dp/B0034JV6DE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1344728196&sr=8-1&keywords=paul+kletzki+naxos)
Thank you, febnyc! I was going to mention the Kletzki PC, but I was travelling and then the next thing I knew it, UC was under construction! It's not pure Rachmaninov, like the Mathieu or Giannini PCs, with touches of Prokofiev in some of the harmonies, but it deserves a place in this thread.
The Kleztki is nothing like Rachmaninov at all. It is written in a highly chromatic idiom on the outer fringes of anything that might be described as Romantic. It's frankly far too long for its material which is pretty undistinguished anyway, as the reviews which I've read elsewhere have pointed out. As I've pointed out before, this thread doesn't benefit from merely throwing names into the ring...
Thank you, Alan, for your kind and understated response to my suggestion of the Kletzki PC. Could you not have been a little more definite (and disrespectful, at the same time)? I don't think so. :P
Of course this is your opinion - I don't agree and I continue to encourage kylo to hear it. I did not "throw" this into "the ring" - I have heard it a number of times and have enjoyed the power of it - regardless of what "reviews" you've seen.
Another is the Piano Concerto #2 in Brazilian Forms by Hekel Tavares. The Concerto has echoes of Rachmaninoff with a faint south-of-the-border tinge. It's a beautiful work, especially the grand first movement.
(This recommendation, no doubt, will bring another knee-jerk reply from Mr. Howe - since Tavares wrote the piece in the late-1930s. I'll run for cover before the fire and brimstone starts to bubble up to the surface.)
These should be more Rachmaninoffian than the Kletzki:
-Ilmari Hannikainen: Piano Concerto in B-Flat Minor. A shame Hannikainen didn't write more orchestral music (he did write a piano quintet, though). His PC (which collectioncb2 (YouTube channel) rightfully designates as a "must hear") is a successful mixture of Slavic romanticism and impressionism.
-Janusz Sent: Piano Concerto no. 1 in E-flat and Piano Concerto no. 2 in F Minor. Janusz Sent was born in 1936, so these concertos could be designated as "pastiche". But, both concertos being around 25 minutes, they are pretty substantial. Sent has also written a Manhattan Fantasy for piano and orchestra. All three of these pieces, along with the Hannikainen, are on YouTube.
- Dora Pejacevic: Phantasie Concertante for Piano and Orchestra. Well, it's not a full-blown concerto, at only 15 minutes, but I wish it was! It could easily serve as the first movement of a concerto. But Pejacevic knows that less is (sometimes ;)) more, so there's a lot of action packed into its small time span. It's available on CPO, with her large-scale Symphony, which also contains echoes of Rach. Has anyone heard her PC in G minor?
Febnyc, you probably didn't notice, but I mentioned the Tavares PC ;D! And Alan, could you please be a bit less critical if someone posts a reply you don't agree with? After all, no one's perfect ::). And I'll protect you, febnyc, if Mr. Moderator summons the fire and brimstone upon you ;)!
Kyjo, febnyc, Alan was certainly robust in his disagreement, but not disrespectful. A difference of opinion, even trenchantly expressed, doesn't imply any lack of respect.
As for the Tavares, I don't know it but if you yourself think that it isn't a work which falls within UC's remit then I'm a bit surprised that you've brought it up. Still, it's early days.
To my mind this thread has been going around in circles for some time and I wonder whether it isn't now time to bring it to a close?
I'm sorry, but I really can't hear any Rachmaninov at all in the Kletzki - the idiom's quite different. I wouldn't discourage anyone from hearing the piece - or buying the Naxos CD (especially at bargain price), which I did, hoping it would be a better work than the reviews suggested it would be.
Thanks for the suggestion of the Tavares - clearly one to investigate, providing its falls within our revised guidelines...
The Tavares sounds absolutely gorgeous - I'm currently listening to it on YouTube. Thanks so much, febnyc, for mentioning it. Rachmaninov plus Gershwin with a touch of Braziliana, perhaps?
The Tavares is a lovely work and was to have been included in Hyperion's RPC series - but the family, having said "Yes", then changed their mind at the last minute and said "No" - after a pianist had learned it and an orchestra and conductor been engaged and recording dates set. We can all do without that sort of copyrightholder. There is now, of course, no chance of Hyperion's recording it should the family have a mercurial change of mind!
I must agree with Alan about the Kletzki - I really can't detect any Rachmaninov in it, and, personally, it's not my cup of tea.
What a shame, Gareth. I should have realised that you'd know it, by the way!
Clearly I was to hasty in my concerns about the Tavares. I'll look forward to catching up with it on YouTube. Thanks for the suggestion, febnyc.
May I add that the PC in C minor by Healey Willan (mentioned before) is a thoroughly gorgeous work. Although the slow movt. is certainly Rachmaninovian, the last movt. is surely the PC Elgar never wrote. This is, IMHO, fully deserving of a first rate modern recording, not that the one it received on CBC Records with Arthur Ozolins and the Toronto Symphony orchestra under Mario Bernardi in 1991 is bad - far from it. Nevertheless, I hope Hyperion will eventually include it in the RPC series.
Yes, you're certainly on track there, Gareth.
There is a recording, still available, of the Tavares concerto with Felicja Blumenthal and Anatole Fistoulari.
Thanks - I've snapped up a copy double-sharpish!
... and I'm just downloading the Willan, thanks.
Quote from: X. Trapnel on Monday 13 August 2012, 22:30
There is a recording, still available, of the Tavares concerto with Felicja Blumenthal and Anatole Fistoulari.
That is the CD I own and it's very good.
My only concern about mentioning it was that it (under the new manifesto) exists beyond the board's target period - at least I think it does, or does it? It was composed after the First World War but nevertheless thoroughly is in the romantic tradition. So does it fall within or without the boundaries of the New World Order here at our cherished UC forum? Anyway, the Tavares Concerto is a lovely work.
PS - many thanks to kyjo for offering up his corpus to stand in the way of any direct fire!
Quote from: febnyc on Monday 13 August 2012, 23:19
My only concern about mentioning it was that it (under the new manifesto) falls beyond the board's target period - at least I think it does, or does it? It was composed after the First World War but nevertheless thoroughly is in the romantic tradition. So does it fall within or without the boundaries of the New World Order here at our beloved UC forum? Anyway, the Tavares Concerto is a lovely work.
Tavares would fit in the category of late, late Romantics (e.g. Marx, Korngold, etc.) whom we name as examples for guidance here:
http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,3681.0.html (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,3681.0.html)
We do recognise that this is a somewhat fuzzy boundary, but it's one we'll try to exercise some discernment over as we go forward.
Quote from: X. Trapnel on Monday 13 August 2012, 22:30
There is a recording, still available, of the Tavares concerto with Felicja Blumenthal and Anatole Fistoulari.
I've just been listening to the first movement on Spotify. When I heard the opening chords I was about to scoff at the connection but the next few minutes were indeed quite Rachly evocative.
I just want to return to the Healey Willan Piano Concerto mentioned by Gareth. I downloaded the Ozolins performance and have just listened to it once through. It's a very enjoyable piece which, as Gareth wrote, is an almost pure amalgam of Elgar (predominantly the first and third movements) and Rachmaninov (the slow movement). Great fun and well played too.
Quote from: X. Trapnel on Monday 13 August 2012, 22:30
There is a recording, still available, of the Tavares concerto with Felicja Blumenthal and Anatole Fistoulari.
Another recording, with Arnaldo Cohen and the Orquestra Sinfônica Petrobrás Pró Música under Roberto Tibiriçá, is also available (on a Brazilian label whose name eludes me for now), which IMO is quite a lot better and has vastly superior sound. The live version of that can be found on YouTube as well (although the third movement is cut off rather awkwardly to cut out the applause, which IIRC is on the CD). Finally, there is the recording with João de Souza Lima playing and the composer conducting, also on YouTube (no CD, to my knowledge). Sound is not great, but solid playing by De Souza Lima.
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Tuesday 14 August 2012, 07:50
I just want to return to the Healey Willan Piano Concerto mentioned by Gareth. I downloaded the Ozolins performance and have just listened to it once through. It's a very enjoyable piece which is, as Gareth wrote, is an almost pure amalgam of Elgar (predominantly the first and third movements) and Rachmaninov (the slow movement). Great fun and well played too.
Indeed, although it almost falls under 'guilty pleasures' - Willan crosses the line into pastiche territory after about three seconds. Great fun, though.
Quote from: Ilja on Thursday 16 August 2012, 09:08
Another recording, with Arnaldo Cohen and the Orquestra Sinfônica Petrobrás Pró Música under Roberto Tibiriçá, is also available (on a Brazilian label whose name eludes me for now), which IMO is quite a lot better and has vastly superior sound. The live version of that can be found on YouTube as well (although the third movement is cut off rather awkwardly to cut out the applause, which IIRC is on the CD). Finally, there is the recording with João de Souza Lima playing and the composer conducting, also on YouTube (no CD, to my knowledge). Sound is not great, but solid playing by De Souza Lima.
As already mentioned elsewhere (see my reply to the catalogue of Camargo Guarnieri's works) there is a
great blog named
"Brasilian Concert Music" with tons of valuable links to Mediafire, offering e.g. the two
alternate recordings of the Tavares concerto mentioned by Ilja
http://musicabrconcerto.blogspot.de/ (http://musicabrconcerto.blogspot.de/)
Oh, yummy.
Getting off-topic, but I must point out that many of the recordings available at that website (like so many others) are illegal uploads of commercial CDs, so it is a matter of conscience whether you access them! ???
An essential reminder - thanks!
Quote from: Alan Howe on Friday 17 August 2012, 09:40
An essential reminder - thanks!
Good point there.
Slightly off-topic sigh: unfortunately, the situation with regard to copyrights, particularly internationally, is sometimes so oblique, that even with the best of intentions you still risk violating them when you download
anything. Weirder still, if I download things from paid sites such as e-music, I still risk violating music publishers' copyrights. The situation is really ridiculous.
Now that I've acquired a copy, the most Rachmaninovian piano concerto I have ever come across is definitely No.4 in E minor by André Mathieu, even if owes its existence to a reconstruction and orchestration project undertaken by one Gilles Bellemare. Nevertheless, even this piece has a personality of its own - a more modern Romanticism with a tinge of Gershwin, perhaps. Gorgeous, all the same. Fancy a real wallow? This is the work to go for...
I've listened to the audio excerpts and they sound very promising. I think it's difficult for any composer, if not impossible, to come even nearby Rachmaninov's overwhelming PC's (1-3, 4 is another thing). However, Mathieu's 4th must have been constructed under the influence of Rachmaninov.
Alan, thanks to your post I have to buy another CD, I guess. Can you advise me which recording? The one with the Tuscon Symphony Orchestra also features 4 Scènes de ballet, which samples trigger my appetite as well. But perhaps the recording with the Montreal SO is more powerful?
A interesting bloke, this André Mathieu (see Wikipedia). Never heard anything by him before.
I have only heard the Analekta recording - but it is stunning in every way.
Yes, but both are on the Analekta label and played by Lefevre. I've read a less positive review on Amazon re the performance of the Tuscon SO.
I can only find one version of PC4 on the Analekta label. Can you enlighten me further?
jpc offers these two:
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Andre-Mathieu-1929-1968-Klavierkonzert-Nr-4/hnum/4980491 (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Andre-Mathieu-1929-1968-Klavierkonzert-Nr-4/hnum/4980491)
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Andre-Mathieu-1929-1968-Klavierkonzert-Nr-4/hnum/9385244 (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Andre-Mathieu-1929-1968-Klavierkonzert-Nr-4/hnum/9385244)
This (http://www.amazon.com/review/RDZJSXN5BS10E/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#RDZJSXN5BS10E) is the review I was talking about.
Ah, I see. If you look at the first item's contents (tracks 1 and 2 of CD2), you'll find it only contains the first and third movements of PC4. By the look of the details here...
http://www.amazon.com/Lenfant-prodige-Lincroyable-destin%C3%A9e-Mathieu/dp/B003F9N6KE/ref=sr_1_8_title_0_main?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1345391595&sr=1-8&keywords=andre+mathieu (http://www.amazon.com/Lenfant-prodige-Lincroyable-destin%C3%A9e-Mathieu/dp/B003F9N6KE/ref=sr_1_8_title_0_main?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1345391595&sr=1-8&keywords=andre+mathieu)
...the two movements are excerpts from the full performance (three movements) on the second CD you have found at jpc.
As for the review - well, it may have a point, but there's no other recording available and, in any case, it's a very fine, passionate performance.
Hope this helps...
Yes, that first disc is a compilation of previous recordings. There's only one of PC 4
(Concerto de Quebec got two separate recordings, I believe, however)
How about a Rachmaninoffian concerto that was written, sort of, by Rachmaninoff himself?
Who has heard the Piano Concerto No. 5 - actually a transcription - by Alexander Warenberg - for piano and orchestra of Rachmaninoff's Second Symphony ? I have and it is a winner.
Warenberg pared down the symphony to fit a three-movement concerto form (inter alia the scherzo is eliminated) but the piano carries the lush themes very well and sounds totally engaged. The middle movement, with that unforgettable melody, comes off beautifully.
I don't know about other members, but I instinctively feel extremely uncomfortable with such cut-and-shut jobs. If I went into the National Gallery and painted my own boat on a Turner, I'd be arrested. If Rachmaninov had wanted to write it as a concerto he would have done so. I haven't listened to this and as a matter of principle, I wouldn't.
I agree and can only see this as an unneccesary stunt that adds nothing to our experience of Rachmaninoff. On this whole subject of the Rachmaninovian we musn't lose sight of the fact that however an imitator may drape himself in SVR's harmony, orchestration, rhythmic sense, melody (ha!), they cannot produce his vision or convincingly inhabit it however briefly. One of the distinctions between the classicist and the romantic is that the where the former strives to do what everyone else is doing but to do it better, the latter strives to do what only he can do and make it good.
Quote from: Lionel Harrsion on Monday 20 August 2012, 00:16
I don't know about other members, but I instinctively feel extremely uncomfortable with such cut-and-shut jobs. If I went into the National Gallery and painted my own boat on a Turner, I'd be arrested. If Rachmaninov had wanted to write it as a concerto he would have done so. I haven't listened to this and as a matter of principle, I wouldn't.
You're entitled to your opinion, with which, obviously, I disagree. I have enjoyed many such "cut-and-shut jobs," as you label them, without any discomfort whatsoever. Try the Sitkovetsky (I think it was his) transcriptions for string orchestra of the Bach Goldberg Variations - a different and enlightening view of these works.
At any rate, it seems to me that your Turner analogy is a bit hysterical (in two senses of that word.) After all, Warenberg was neither defacing the original nor was he committing a crime. Perhaps your queasiness has blurred your reasoning?
Re Sitkovetsky's Goldberg, this is transcription, not recomposition/rearrangement of parts. Likewise the piano and orchestra arrangements of the Rachmaninoff piano suites by Rebekah Harkness and Lee Hoiby seem reasonable.
Now, perhaps if an expert forger put the "Fighting Temeraire" into "Peace: Funeral at Sea" we'd have TWO superbly painted ships in one picture; surely an improvement... And I've always longed to see the "Rain, Steam, and Speed" locomotive roar right through the "Interior at Petworth."
I'm rather tickled at the analogy between this Warenberg character transcribing / arranging / plagiarising (I'm not sure of the correct word) Rachmaninov's Second Symphony and transforming it into a piano concerto and your painting your own boat on top of a Turner.
It clearly would be outrageous to call the result 'Piano Concerto No. 5'. Whatever it is, it isn't Rach's Pf Concerto 5. As you say, Rachmaninov never wrote such a work.
However I don't think the analogy quite works. If you daub paint on top of the Turner then you're destroying the Turner painting forever - many people would be rather miffed, and little wonder you're arrested for you would be committing a criminal act of vandalisation.
Mr Warenberg might have done something pretty unseemly - like you I really wouldn't want to listen to this thing - but he is not a vandal for the simple reason that he hasn't destroyed the Rachmaninov work. In my view he's merely done something rather naff. So maybe you're on slightly shakey ground in having what would seem to be an objection a priori to the idea of the work?
Just by coincidence, earlier this evening I listened to - and thoroughly enjoyed - an arrangement of Beethoven's E flat major Septet Op. 20 by one Friedrich Hermann for Viola and Piano. Hermann's work, under the title of 'Grand Duo' was published by Peters in Leipzig in 1853, and is found on a wonderful Toccata disc, 'Beethoven by Arrangement', played by Paul Silverthorne and David Owen Norris.
Now I rather sense you might not "instinctively feel extremely uncomfortable" with Hermann's Grand Duo, and maybe like me would enjoy the work and not be suspicious of its legitimacy.
Of course, it would be as silly to call it Beethoven's Grand Duo as to call the former work Rachmaninov's Fifth Piano Concerto. I happily welcome the Hermann work. I consider it more than a worthwhile work in its own right: it is great fun to listen to, it taught me a few things about the Beethoven Septet which I hadn't noticed before, and there was no sense at all in which listening to it caused the hackles to rise given that Hermann is 're-arranging' the Beethoven work.
Hence a problem arises: if it is acceptable, and doesn't violate good taste, for Hermann to arrange the Beethoven work and thus to bring into existence another work (although being an arrangement one dependent on its original), then (at least in principle) what's wrong with this Warenberg fellow arranging Rachmaninov's symphony? Maybe I've missed something, or the brain has just gone into plod mode.
And of course there are many many other examples - e.g. the Liszt transcriptions. Surely you wouldn't, "as a matter of principle", refuse to listen to such things, or even acknowledge that some 'arrangements' might be meritorious?
How about eliminating/orchestrating the piano part in, say, the Third Concerto to make a Rachmaninoff Fourth Symphony. Pointless? Well...
Well there's Tchaikovsky's Symphony in Eb....
Honestly I think more people are more bothered with the names "Rachmaninoff PC #5" and "Brahms PC #3" than the actual pieces. But I don't see them as any different than any other arrangement. They may be successesful or not, but there's nothing inherently /wrong/ with them any more than the version for winds of Beethoven's Septet I've been listening to, or Golliwog's Cakewalk for string quartet....or whatever else.
Going back to "Brhams Piano Concerto #3", is that much different than "Beethoven Piano Concerto #6" outside the fact that Beethoven himself did the later? How about Stravinsky turning Pulcinella and The Fairy's Kiss ballets into pieces for violin and piano? Is Leonard's orchestration of Pictures at an Exhibition less worthy than Ravel/Ashkenazy/Wood/Funtek/etc/etc's because it's for piano and orchestra instead of orchestra alone?
One could go on....
But I'd rather you didn't. Back to the topic, please...
...and then there's the "Concerto Elegiaque", which is a version of Rachmaninov's Elegiac Trio arranged for piano and orchestra by Alan Kogosowski. Personally I enjoy it, it added to my perception of the original version for Trio.
Well, many post-Rach. concertos show his influence, of course, or at least seem to. My first vote goes to Golubev's 1st (1944), with its emotional, driving style, the piano and orchestra in constant dialogue, and forever teetering on the edge of a big powerful melody, which finds fulfilment in the final movement. It's structured in the same way as a Rach. PC, with a wistful central slow movement mostly played by piano alone, followed by a rousing 'no holds barred' finale. Sorry, I don't know the technical arguments, but all one needs to do is listen to that last movement - one big intense Rachmaninovian crescendo. I really expected to find that he had been taught at some stage by Rachmaninov, but he was actually a pupil of Myaskovsky! :)
Quote from: Christopher on Monday 20 August 2012, 08:05
...and then there's the "Concerto Elegiaque", which is a version of Rachmaninov's Elegiac Trio arranged for piano and orchestra by Alan Kogosowski. Personally I enjoy it, it added to my perception of the original version for Trio.
This implies an interesting point. Arrangements can actually enhance your understanding of the original. Getting to know Liszt's piano arrangements of the Beethoven symphonies certainly opened my eyes to aspects that had eluded me before, because lots of what I might disrespectfully call the 'chaff' of orchestration has to be cut away on the piano. The change of scenery can really give you a new view on what is essential.
Quote from: febnyc on Monday 20 August 2012, 00:59
At any rate, it seems to me that your Turner analogy is a bit hysterical (in two senses of that word.) After all, Warenberg was neither defacing the original nor was he committing a crime. Perhaps your queasiness has blurred your reasoning?
While sensitive to Alan's request that we revert to the topic, I feel I have to defend myself against the charge of hysteria! To me the analogy works from the point of view of the fact that once I have listened to one of these hack arrangements I can never again hear the original without the damn re-working impinging on my conscious -- it taints the original for all time. As a silly but powerful example, since having heard the recording of Reizenstein's 'Concerto Popolare' from one of the Hoffnung concerts, I have never been able to listen the Grieg piano concerto without imagining the interpolations from Tchaikovsky's 1st concerto which Reizenstein shoe-horned into his musical joke. So that that extent, the 'Turner' that is the Grieg piano concerto has been ruined for all time for me by Reizenstein.
OK, defence accomplished! Moving on...
In reply to kyjo's posting on August 13th, readers might like to know that Hannikainen's lovely (and very romantic before anyone asks) Piano Concerto Op 7 was broadcast this morning on R3 as part of their "Through the Night" (around 5:30-6 am). This means it should be on iplayer for another 6 days or so - well worth a listen! I reckon it should be added to the long list of future RPCs for Hyperion.
Just listened to the Hannikainen PC (thanks for the post, Jeremy) and it's a winner IMHO - written in St Petersburg just before the Russian revolution. Certainly a candidate for the RPC series, I'd say. I wonder what other Finnish PCs of a Romantic nature were written at about the same time.
Can somebody record it and upload it, please?
Never mind. It's on YouTube. Of course. :)
P.S. And we still have in in our downloads archive.
Listened to Pabst's piano concerto yesterday and I detected hints of Rachmaninov in the final movement - anyone else agree with me?
My second suggestion for an Unsung Rach. PC is the Rhapsody 21 by Mineo, which I think I downloaded from UC. This is Rachmaninov meets The Dream of Olwen - cheesy "running toward each other along cliff tops" music, but quite charming, well to me anyway! ;D
Anyone else enjoy it?
I don't know it, and the folder doesn't seen to be there anymore. Could you possibly upload it?
Quote from: Gareth Vaughan on Saturday 01 September 2012, 21:43
I don't know it, and the folder doesn't seen to be there anymore. Could you possibly upload it?
Happy to do that, Gareth, subject to approval. ;)
How Vladigerov could be omitted from this list is beyond me..born to late, I suppose..
Can we think to Grieg's a minor piano concerto as a prequel of rachmaninov first PC (first version, think to the accords before the orchestral TUTTI at the end of the exposition....)...what about Rosza? Spellbound Piano Concerto?
Bye Andrea
Quote from: reineckeforever on Wednesday 05 September 2012, 21:16
Can we think to Grieg's a minor piano concerto as a prequel of rachmaninov first PC
Well, considering Rach's 1st PC was purposefully written to follow Grieg's model...
As for Rozsa's piece, see the above discussion about the Warsaw Concerto et. al.
I did a research all over this topic....nobody mentioned Catoire...I think his piano concerto op. 21 is a superrachmaninoffian piano concerto!!!
I'm of two minds about including this but have mentioned him before - Willy Ostijn's music for piano and orchestra, while too-recently written, seems to me on re-listening to be not only anachronistically Romantic but fairly well on the Rachmaninoff side of things (in shape, manner of argument, etc.) No work I've heard actually entitled "concerto", but the 2 Concert-pieces ("Concertstuk") with piano - see e.g. Concertstuk, piano and strings (http://imslp.org/wiki/Concertstuk_piano_en_strijkers_(Ostijn,_Willy))), the Ballade (only an incomplete performance available at IMSLP at present)- I don't know, have a listen.
Ostijn's Concertstuk is a very attractive work, totally romantic in style which certainly does have the whiff of Rachmaninov abut it. Thanks for this, Eric.
the other Concertstuk near-quotes Rachmaninoff and Grieg to the point where I decided I needed to point you to the one with strings for fairness- I think I prefer the ballade of the three, though the recording provided is an incomplete arrangement. But I do like what I am hearing of his music (as uploaded/typeset by his nephew, I think!- a little was performed during his lifetime but I don't know of CD recordings offhand (except for 11 CDs brought out by his family mentioned at CeBeDeM (http://www.cebedem.be/nl/componisten/o/1892-ostyn-willy), where I think some of the recordings @IMSLP may come from.) Anyhow. :)
I should go listen to deGreef's concertos, for instance, and see if they qualify...
Quote from: eschiss1 on Tuesday 11 September 2012, 17:56
(as uploaded/typeset by his nephew, I think!-
It is really his nephew, I already had mail contact with him. He spent years on typesetting his uncle's works...
I've started a thread on Ostijn here (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,3784.0.html), so back to Rachmaninov-alikes....
Wish we had a version of this on CD of Hannikainen's Piano Concerto... the 1957 recording on Finlandia is in mono and sounds typical of 1950s recordings.....
Quote from: Revilod on Tuesday 11 September 2012, 19:30
Scriabin's wonderful concerto is also in the Rachmaninov vein (especially the big tune in the finale).
Is there a recommended recording of the Scriabin concerto? I think I only know the old recording by Heinrich Neuhaus.
Well, it's not unsung by any stretch of the imagination, but for me the Ashkenazy/Maazel recording on Decca is still the yardstick. I wouldn't call it "Rachmaninoffian" though as it predates the 2nd Concerto by four years.
I've seen Pabst being mentioned, but his concerto predates even the first concerto by a few years, so perhaps we should call these concerts "Pabstian"?...
Yevgeny Sudbin's recording, coupled with Medtner's Third on BIS is outstanding among more recent versions. Listen to the way Andrew Litton shapes the melody of the slow movement.
Thanks for the recommendations! I ordered the Sudbin already yesterday after looking around and reading a number of reviews of fifferent recordings.
The Scriabin concerto may not be unsung but it is really Rachmaninoffian.
I'm a little surprised not to see the following works mentioned to date in this thread-
*de Greef's first concerto (or perhaps both)
*maybe Sauer's, not sure. (Hyperion ; Danacord) Will have to listen again and get back to you on that myself, actually.