OK, I admit it: I just can't help myself. I find some unsung pieces of music irresistible, even though I know they're too long. An example? Rheinberger's 53-minute long Florentiner Sinfonie (that's longer than any of Brahms' symphonies). Its first movement features a rising figure that is repeated again and again in different guises, but oh the flood of melody and the gorgeous orchestration - heaving cello lines, solemn brass. I'm in seventh heaven. Too long? Of course. But what scenery...
Then, as it if that weren't enough, there's a gloriously lyrical slow movement to lose yourself in, followed by the dreamiest of menuettos suggesting, according to the composer's wife, a slow carriage journey out of the city of Florence to a high-lying church from where the city could be viewed beneath them. Then there's a jolly, boisterous finale which just sweeps you along - again too long, but I can forgive the composer anything because there's always some lovely tune to carry you along or some marvellous passage of orchestral writing to entertain you. Too lengthy? Sure, but I can't help myself...
Has anyone a candidate in this category (one or two per person, please, preferably with reasons)?
Urspruch Symphony. A little more sung: Dvorak 2.
The much loved Gliere 3rd. Let's be honest, there are large swaths in the symphony, esp that long last movement, that should have been cut. Second movement the same. It would have been fine at 60 min. What I hate though is that in trimming it as many conductors do, they always cut that wonderful contrabassoon solo in the second movement. But I still listen to the whole shebang frequently.
Then there's the Tchaikovsky Manfred which also could have been sheared - but by the composer, not conductors! Actually, I think the first three movements are just fine as he wrote them, but that last movement needed some trimming. Like Toscanini did. I love that symphony, but maybe if Tchaik had cut out that unnecessary fugue in the last movement, and some padding along the way, it would be played more often. But the ingeniousness and skill of the writing make it worthwhile.
Lastly, virtually all of The Ring. I love the cycle. I've sat through several productions, plan on more. I have several recordings. I love it. All of it. Yet there are times (usually in Twilight) that wouldn't it have been nice if each opera had been written to match the length say of La Boheme?
As Jim has suggested, my vote would go for Dvorak's Second because of the endless supply of melody coupled with constant rhythmic interest which he shoehorns into the sheer youthful energy of the work. It's one of my stock choices when I need to cheer myself up and start whistling. A wonderful feel-good piece.
Can't agree about cuts in Ilya Morumetz. Safer to say that it's a piece some embrace completely and others do not. I think its breadth is absolutely suited to the material and fully realized.
Don't touch a note of Ilya Murametz! There's not a dull moment; the lengthiness is repetition/elaboration of good material, not uninspired note spinning.
I just have to nominate Marx's Herbstsymphonie. I wallow in every minute of it! I wouldn't care if it went on for hours, even though it is really too long! There's no end to the gorgeous orchestration and sumptuously rich textures. The Gliere Ilya Murametz, however, is not too long at all; Gliere knows how to fill a large time span with exciting, memorable music a little better than Marx, but I enjoy the two symphonies equally!
P.S.- Sorry if this doesn't make any sense!
I also prefer the uncut Gliere 3, especially Farberman's recording.
My addition to this topic of overly long but (to me) irresistible works has to be Taneyev's "Oresteia". The most one normally encounters from this opera is the Overture, which was not a part of the opera, but a separate symphonic poem based on music from the opera, and one bit of music from Act 3.
At 2 1/2 hours, the complete opera is not something you would normally want to listen to in one sitting, although I have listened to the complete work in one night (with intermissions between the acts) on multiple occasions. Taneyev actually called it a trilogy. The complete work is in 3 acts, but each act is basically a separate opera.
Despite its length, I find the music and orchestration compelling. And this from someone who really doesn't much like opera.
I wish someone would film a performance of the trilogy for DVD.
I'm having much too much trouble answering this one myself- some (many?...) of the pieces that first come to mind seem on reflection to be - not too lengthy but... very, very lengthy and just right, though not for everyday use. But that's -- other threadage.
In the case of Wagner, every opera he ever wrote except Rheingold qualifies.
Quote from: Amphissa on Saturday 11 August 2012, 22:53My addition to this topic of overly long but (to me) irresistible works has to be Taneyev's "Oresteia". The most one normally encounters from this opera is the Overture, which was not a part of the opera, but a separate symphonic poem based on music from the opera, and one bit of music from Act 3.
At 2 1/2 hours, the complete opera is not something you would normally want to listen to in one sitting, although I have listened to the complete work in one night (with intermissions between the acts) on multiple occasions. Taneyev actually called it a trilogy. The complete work is in 3 acts, but each act is basically a separate opera.
Isn't Meyerbeer's
Huguenots like, 5 hours long, uncut? Or do I have it confused with Wagner's
Rienzi? Or is there no confusion because they're both that long?
No, the Meyerbeer's definitely long - 4 CDs in Bonynge's performance - but definitely not 5 hours. Who wants to do the math (for US members)/maths (for UK members)...? ;)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Les-Huguenots/dp/B00000E4N9/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1344884844&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Les-Huguenots/dp/B00000E4N9/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1344884844&sr=1-1)
I really cannot agree about "The Ring" - there is not a note out of place. It is an extraordinary masterwork. The carefully controlled and brilliantly woven tapestry of leitmotifs clothes an architectural structure of colossal intellect - a truly grand design. I would not say the same of every opera he wrote, but one must recognize genius when one encounters it. That said, I fully realize that Wagner divides opinion massively - he did in his lifetime and he does now. If you don't respond to his music, fair enough - you're in respectable company (Rossini!) - but I'm afraid I do, very profoundly. Mind you, I also adore Rossini - and I'm sure I'd rather have spent an afternoon in his company than in Wagner's.
I agree 100% with Gareth. For Wagnerites such as myself, there's not a note too many in the Ring. In fact, I'm contemplating purchasing the forthcoming version on Blu-ray recorded at the Met with, among others Bryn Terfel. Oh dear, I'm obviously hooked...
I wish there was more space for anti-Wagnerites to-day, like myself. I always feel like an atheist in church concerning Wagner. We _will_ see the Met's PARSIFAL next season, although I'm giving my 15-year old daughter (an avid opera fan) the option of us leaving if it gets to be too, too much - it's her first Wagner, and I think it our duty to go, but as for me there are plenty of extra notes in it I can miss. (For years it was performed annually at Indiana University, where I went, on a Sunday early afternoon and evening with a longish dinner break. Very Midwestern, but lots of people didn't come back after dinner...)
Nuremberg is doing _Guillaume Tell_ shortly, or has done it (I saw the opera house emblazoned with posters) - but I wonder how much of it? That beats everything yet posted here in terms of length.
I don't think that Wagner's too long - it's life that's too short! ::)
William Tell is certainly very looooong - and a very important work looking ahead to later Italian opera. As for Wagner, I agree: life's definitely too short!
I'm a Wagner agnostic at home. At some point the urge to do some mindless domestic chore overtakes my wish to plough onto the third CD, but that's never a problem with, say, Meyerbeer. But in the theatre it's a different matter - I have loved every Wagner production I've seen. Time almost ceases to exist as one is absorbed into the totality of Wagner's world, even when it's staged in an inappropriate modern setting. I can't think of any other artistic endeavour which has that effect in me.
QuoteI'm giving my 15-year old daughter (an avid opera fan) the option of us leaving if it gets to be too, too much - it's her first Wagner,
I think Parsifal is a tough nut to crack - not one I'd choose to introduce someone to Wagner. I fear it may put her off for life. I hope not, but certainly she should leave if she gets bored. Tannhauser is probably the best introduction to Wagner.
Parsifal might be a bit of a stretch for her - it sends my mother soundly off to sleep!
I should say that I greatly enjoy Wagner through LOHENGRIN plus MEISTERSINGER (I'm afraid I follow Sullivan's taste), and I like RIENZI very much, but I much prefer Meyerbeer all round (and I'm at least partially with you, Mark, on that). It's TRISTAN, PARSIFAL, and the RING that I always, always have trouble with (and I can't help always hearing in my mind Anna Russell saying "Remember the Ring?") If you want the most abridged bit of Wagner on record I have the Columbia Band under Charles Prince doing as much of the PARSIFAL prelude as would fit on a 10" 78 side, recorded in 1904. The bandsmen are completely mystified by the style, though they were undoubtedly familiar with excerpts from the early works, and the cuts are as monumental as the opera itself. It's rather charmingly naive, but the flip side (it was one of Columbia's abortive 1904 double-faced series), the - as announced - "Gralsritter March", is much better played and quite evocative. Would anyone like to hear it?
Although I recognize the great contribution Wagner made to music, I do have to agree with Rossini that the wondrous moments are interspersed within long stretches of rather dull stasis.
The Wagner I've enjoyed most is a synthesis of Wagner music crafted by Maazel called "The Ring Without Words". (It is, indeed, "unsung")
Yes, I know -- I'm a heretic and shall be skewered by the Wagner purists! But how different is this from orchestral suites drawn from operas by other composers?
Maazel's is not the only synthesis out there, but it is the best to my ears. And at 75 minutes, it is not exactly a sprint. Thus it is not only "unsung" (literally), but also lengthy, (and to me) much more irresistible than sitting through the entire Ring operas listening for my favorite bits of music.
Maazel recorded this with the Berlin Philharmonic. But I have a broadcast of a performance with Maazel conducting the Santa Cecilia orchestra, which I think has never been released commercially in any form.
I don't know if it would be of interest to others here, or if it would be appropriate to upload.
Quote from: Gareth Vaughan on Tuesday 14 August 2012, 10:11
I think Parsifal is a tough nut to crack - not one I'd choose to introduce someone to Wagner. I fear it may put her off for life. I hope not, but certainly she should leave if she gets bored. Tannhauser is probably the best introduction to Wagner.
I am not sure what is says about me but my first encounter with Wagner was when I watched Parsifal on the TV one Easter. I seem to recollect that I was immovable for the full length and I still find Parsifal my personal favourite amongst his operas by a long distance. I still struggle immensely with Siegfried.
Quote from: pcc on Tuesday 14 August 2012, 00:16
I wish there was more space for anti-Wagnerites to-day, like myself. I always feel like an atheist in church concerning Wagner.
I'll gladly assist you in nailing those ninety-five theses to that concert hall door ;-)
Heretic! ;)
For how long has Wagner been an unsung composer???
He isn't. Sorry pardon. Back to the unsungs...
Quote from: giles.enders on Friday 17 August 2012, 11:32
For how long has Wagner been an unsung composer???
As Mark says, he isn't, of course, but there is at least one rarity which I think would deserve a place here as a rare unsung gem - his short and sweet choral piece
Kinderkatechismus. Now that certainly is irresistible, and not too lengthy. :)
And one rarely heard (so somewhat "unsung" or "unplayed") Wagner piece that always make me laugh with its grandiosity and wallopingness over tiny material - his overture to DAS LIEBESVERBOT. The gigantic coda is one of the most deliriously silly things I've ever heard. (I do also note the hints of more mature Wagner melody in the work's odd Rossinian "crescendi".) I love it!
Quote from: Alan Howe on Friday 10 August 2012, 22:50
OK, I admit it: I just can't help myself. I find some unsung pieces of music irresistible, even though I know they're too long. An example? Rheinberger's 53-minute long Florentiner Sinfonie (that's longer than any of Brahms' symphonies). Its first movement features a rising figure that is repeated again and again in different guises, but oh the flood of melody and the gorgeous orchestration - heaving cello lines, solemn brass. I'm in seventh heaven. Too long? Of course. But what scenery...
Then, as it if that weren't enough, there's a gloriously lyrical slow movement to lose yourself in, followed by the dreamiest of menuettos suggesting, according to the composer's wife, a slow carriage journey out of the city of Florence to a high-lying church from where the city could be viewed beneath them. Then there's a jolly, boisterous finale which just sweeps you along - again too long, but I can forgive the composer anything because there's always some lovely tune to carry you along or some marvellous passage of orchestral writing to entertain you. Too lengthy? Sure, but I can't help myself...
Has anyone a candidate in this category (one or two per person, please, preferably with reasons)?
Well after that eulogy, I felt an immediate urge to order a used copy from the US. Sounds like just the sort of indulgent wallow I adore - and Rheinberger is a gem of an Unsung anyway. Not many months pass without an outing for the first Organ Concerto (though that is less Unsung than most of his output......)
I do hope my enthusiasm results in a 'conversion' - not that it sounds like you need too much persuading to acquire some more Rheinberger (for me, one of the great unsung craftsman-composers). Do let us know your opinion of the piece when it arrives...
When performed by Chailly, Mendelssohn's Symphony 2 is an unbroken pleasure for me, even though the last part has too many numbers to be fully coherent.
Raff Symphony nr.1 - short on melodic material, finale problem.
Rubinstein Symphony #2 - Ocean, 7 movement version - some problems.
M.Yaskovsky - short on reasons / explanations - clear problems!
And with all respect to you!
erm... could one -try- to give reasons (even if slight and brief and perpendicular to reason-reasons- this is music, not math, and the reasonableness of math is -- overrated by people outside the... never mind) - both for the irresistible and the too lengthy parts- in this person's honest opinion?... better chance to draw others to one's corner that way. (Of course, Dag Henrik Esrum-Hellerup's piano concerto played by Joyce Hatto is neat even if also too full of longueurs but does tend to bring one back... oh, shut up, Eric.)
The previous points are entirely proper and relevant; in fact they restate our constant mantra here at UC, namely that an explanation of the reason(s) behind the opinion presented is the most interesting part of of a post.
So, with the greatest of respect, please tell us not merely what you think, but why you think it!