We had this discussion a couple of years ago, but I found it interesting to provoke an update. The question is: which composers do you think are ascending or descending from one category (sung) into the other (unsung) in the concert hall and on CD/MP3?
The thing that made me raise the question is that I noticed certain composers that I heard a lot of music from in my student days (about 15 years ago) are becoming gradually less performed in (Dutch) concert halls: Ravel, Stravinsky and Bartók, to name just three. The reverse is the case with Dutch composers: some pieces by Wagenaar, Van Gilse and Van Anrooy are now heard quite often (well, more often than before). Usually as openers however - still, it's a start.
What trends have you noticed in your country / region?
I think that concerts are very different from recordings: in recordings, Stanford and Bax seem to have become a lot more sung, but in concerts Stanford remains unsung and Bax has gone from slightly sung to largely unsung. Havergal Brian seems to be getting increasingly sung too, especially in the recording studio.
The problem is that a composer can be largely unsung in the concert hall, and yet may actually have received a fair number of recordings. Raff, I suggest, falls into this category. Take the symphonies, for example: they have all been recorded at least twice, some of them more than that, and yet concert performances are still a rare event. I'd say that Raff was on the way to becoming 'sung' (again, as he was in the 1870s when he was as famous as Brahms, Liszt or Wagner), but that there's still a long road ahead.
By contrast, a composer such as Szymanowski has now surely acquired an international reputation. When I 'discovered' him for myself in the 70s, the recordings were pretty well exclusively Polish; now you know he's become sung because the likes of Rattle and Boulez have recorded him - and performed him live.
Other composers have enjoyed the advocacy of societies dedicated to their cause which have made recordings and promoted performances (e.g. Draeseke) or have been the subject of support from the state (Rufinatscha from the government of the Tyrol) - but (sadly), if that advocacy or support were withdrawn, they might once more disappear into the mists of time. (Of course, at least Draeseke was a 'name' during his lifetime and attracted the attention of major performers; Rufinatscha's reputation, on the other hand, flowered briefly in the 1840/50s and then seems to have taken a complete nose-dive).
As for composers who have travelled in the opposite direction, I'll have to come back to the topic later...
To my uninformed self, there seems to be a trend to let 'unsung' pieces by 'sung' composers get a bit more attention (for example, Prof Newbold's completions/realisations of Schubert symphonies). I have treasured for some time the Hyperion edition of these works and had the chance, a few years ago, to hear Sir Simon Rattle perform Schubert's Symphony No. 10 live at the Festival Hall. Whilst delighted to hear a live performance, it was unfortunately nowhere near as enjoyable to listen to as the CD and sounded very flat and under-rehearsed.
Other unknown works, or completions/performing versions of them, seem to be popping up all over, so I would suggest that such unknowns are on the march towards ceasing to be 'unknowns' any longer. Even if the purists do not approve/agree with such completions, personally to hear such a work, even if not all the notes are by the composer, is still better than not hearing it at all!
Since my listening is now 100% via CD, I'm only aware of unknowns on the march (e.g. Brull, Jadsssohn - thank you so much Cameo Classics!) and cannot judge anyone who is on the wane.
Just a thought or two.
Richard
...for the most part, though, the general trend has been away from adding composers to the sung pantheon, in my view - at least as far as the wider, concert-going public is concerned and the critics and magazines that report on them.
What is without doubt true is that a number of composers have attracted a lot of recording activity and have thus become well-known to folk such as us. However, I can't think of many composers who have become sung (in the sense of becoming known to the wider public through concert performances) in the past, say, decade.
There are, of course, certain individual pieces by unsung composers which have entered the mainstream repertoire. One of these, surely, is Suk's Asrael Symphony which seems to be receiving recordings from all manner of labels and public performances everywhere, but without bringing the remainder of the composer's output along with it.
On the other hand, public performances of a work such as Brian's Gothic Symphony have arguably been merely spectacular (and exciting) one-offs, with no discernible positive enhancement of the composer's reputation and certainly no increase in the frequency of public performances of his other works. In Brian's case, it is difficult to get past the 'one-offness' (for want of a better phrase) of his most famous work and proceed to his others.
...as for composers who have travelled in the other direction and begun to lose their sung status, I can't really think of any. And that may be a symptom of the wider problem, which is precisely how unsung composers' music is to make its way into the sung repertoire if that repertoire is, in general terms, so ossified that there is no means of bringing this about. Until the power of promoters, the ignorance of even big-name performers and the 'Classic FM' mentality of the public are challenged and broken down in the manner of such tradition-snubbing refuseniks as Leon Botstein or JoAnn Faletta (or by milder versions of the same), nothing will change.
There: that's my toothache talking!
...mind you, with Waghalter's VC being performed in London in November (as well as already having been recorded by Naxos), there is the odd sign of hope that some concert organisers and performers might have the courage to buck the general trend.
Burkhardt Schmilgun of cpo once told me that following their release of the Atterberg symphony cycle there had been some increase in demand for his works by orchestras. The trend I've seen recently in the Netherlands, Belgium and Germany is a further reduction of the 'big' repertory, compensated somewhat by the inclusion of minor 'experiments'. In the overture-concert-symphony scheme for concerts, that means that the overture will most often be the 'unfamiliar' piece, whereas the chance that the symphony is an unsung piece is becoming ever smaller. But again, I haven't researched this thoroughly. I might, though.
If that's true, Ilja, it's a start, but nothing more than that. Unfortunately!
I think Erich Wolfgang Korngold is becoming more and more sung here in Germany – he hasn't been absolutely unsung (nearly all of his works are recorded, most of them have multiple recordings), but in concert halls, his music was relatively absent. Nowadays, his Violin Concerto is performed quite often (I think only in Germany at least 20 times per year) and his big late-romantic opera "Die Tote Stadt" is getting performed quite often as well – I think you can watch it at least at three different opera houses in Germany alone every year (there are 80 opera houses in Germany, so this is still not very often, but it's a beginning). The same thing happens with Franz Schreker, whose operas are more and more often performed.
My last example ist Mieczyslaw Weinberg, a polish-jewish composer who fled to Russia after the Nazis attacked Poland. He was a close friend of Shostakovich, their music is very similar, they learned from each other. After his music was center of the important Salzburg music festival some years ago, his music is at least recorded quite often, chandos has started a series of his symphonies and concertos. But maybe his music is not romantic enough for the "unsung composers"-board. Both other composers definitively are.
ewk
Moderator's note: I have allowed this post to stand because it contains important information about composers relevant to this site. However, we would be grateful if posters would refrain from bringing up music beyond the revised remit of Unsung Composers.
Alan Howe
Perhaps Alkan might be a candidate who has crossed the barrier from unsung to sung. 10 years ago, he did not seem to get much of a mention on piano forums, but now he appears almost every week and there are no shortage of CD's available.
As for concerts, I would not know as I never keep an eye out for those. It would be a brave man that would attempt some of his larger works live, but with his bicentenary coming up next year, I wager there will be more than usual.
Thal
Re Alkan: I've heard the solo symphony live (March 2005, Hamelin, in Ithaca NY) and I see that Kenneth Hamilton is playing another part of op.39, Le festin d'Ésope, next March in Cardiff (the concert also includes Liszt's B minor sonata and other works.) (Neither was/is on the anniversary of Alkan's death, no. All three being in March does seem a bit of a coincidence.)
As far as sung to unsung goes -- perhaps not composers as a whole, but individual pieces seem to fall out of favor. I believe the last recording of Gaite Parisienne was Naxos's in 1996, for instance. A lot of overtures seem to fall by the say side too -- Suppe used to be a staple yet he seems to have fallen off the map.
I'd nominate César Franck as a composer whose concert hall star has waned. Time was, in the 70s especially, when the Symphony seemed inescapable and both Le Chausseur Maudit and the Symphonic Variations enjoyed a brief vogue in the first half of concerts. My impression is that he isn't heard live that much any more. Similarly Mendelssohn's warhorses the Italian and Scottish Symphonies and the Violin and Piano Concertos were always being programmed but they don't appear anything like so often now. The same is true of Schumann's Piano Concerto but not his symphonies, which in the UK at least are enjoying a resurgence for some reason.
Yes, I agree about Franck: his star has definitely waned.
And, dare I say, it: Mozart?
A friend, who is a programmer at one of Holland's larger ochestras, told me that generally concertos with a lot of Mozart were the most geriatric of all. He claimed that there was no interest in Mozart from the under-fifty audiences.
Very interesting. Apart from the (later) symphonies, I'm not as interested in Mozart as I used to be. And yet the recordings keeping coming out by the bucket-load!
Here in the provinces, Mozart continues atop the list of the most frequently performed composers, along with Beethoven.
I'd agree with the decline in performances of Franck over the years. I also think Grieg is played less now than he used to be. The Grieg piano concerto held on the longest, but I see that programmed less and less these days. Berlioz seems to be getting less play in the U.S. as well, probably because the Symphonie fantastique is about the only Berlioz to get played much to begin with.
Of course, over here, there are some American composers who get played pretty frequently, who may get less play elsewhere. Gershwin, Copland, and Barber. Of those, I think Copland has been on the wane of late. He got performed a lot more back when Bernstein was around to champion his music.
One American composer of romantic music is getting more play lately than he used to -- Victor Herbert. I have no explanation for the phenomenon and am not convinced interest will be sustained.
One composer who was hugely popular in the U.S. back in the early 20th century was Paderewski, based primarily on the popularity of his piano concerto. His music is now virtually forgotten, totally ignored in the concert halls.
Practically no difference here in Moscow. Same old Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninov, Prokofiev and Shostakovich. I actually think that repertoire has become even more narrow during the last decade. On the contrary, I was in Portugal this spring where I was able to hear Braga Santos' 4th symphony paired with Rachmaninov's 3rd concerto - surely that was one of the best concertos in my whole life :)
I would think from the look of the schedule of some country's orchestras that they include some lesser-known "national" (not always nationalist) composers each season - the Czech Philharmonic is opening their season with a work by Petr Eben next month, for instance- but this doesn't really bear on the sung/unsung issue, which, as Mendelssohn could tell us in putting together materials for the St. Matthew Passion, has to do with consistency, advocacy, long-time commitment, not the occasional concert
(and Schoenberg in an essay about including, or not including, the occasional American composer in concerts in the US, written the next century said much the same thing.)
That said, I'm going to go way out on a limb and say that there's a chance that Myaskovsky might be on his way. His music is on the radio often enough, his name is one of the only "unsungs" that my family members hear about from people other than me (and sometimes quite randomly from their other musical acquaintances, it seems)... I gather (maybe incorrectly, or maybe because of his pedagogy and not his music) that his name is known to some Russians I have met who are not otherwise classical music fanatics - I think there's a chance there, if not a large one.
That's an interesting thought, Eric. I'm going to keep my eyes open over here to see whether any more Myaskovsky is being programmed.
according to the opt-in concerts list BachTrack (http://www.bachtrack.com/find-a-concert/what;all-composers/), only 3 concerts this year, so not doing so well there (as opposed to e.g. 57 with Samuel Barber, counting repeats of the same program, etc. Or 27 with Szymanowski- where do we put Szymanowski in sung/unsung? :)
(27-5 repetitions, many of the rest in a series in London devoted to works by Szymanowski coupled with Brahms etc.)
Ah, you've already written about that...) Hrm. Or Frank Bridge? (32-3 repetitions of Gardner's concert with "The Sea"-1 repetition of the Britten Sinfonia program = about 28.)
(Zemlinsky surprises me a little, coming in as unexpectedly-to-me high as 17-repetitions - which may not count - might not be listed, will have to look- a Czech Philharmonic chamber concert I noticed in which his 4th quartet will be played.) Anyhow. Sorry!
Korngold is most decidedly now sung. Beyond the Violin Concerto being performed dozens of times per year (possibly even more), his chamber works, songs and especially the film scores now turn up with regularity in the states.
Fronder, Bach is not even in the top 25 in number of performances in the U.S. Haydn and even Handel get played more than Bach. Which is okay with me. I just wish Mozart would go into steep decline as well.
I love Myaskovsky and would really like to see his music on programs. But I am not as optimistic as Eric. The only Myaskovsky that seems to get any concert programming at all is his beautiful cello concerto.
I am sad to say that the unsungs that get played in the U.S. with any regularity are modern works. If I remember correctly, over 25% of all concerts in the U.S. last year featured works by modern composers. With programs so heavy with warhorses, when the only unfamiliar pieces are by modern composers, there is little space for romantic unsungs. This is especially true as the total number of concert performances (and orchestras) seems to be decreasing steadily.
I do agree, though, that Korngold seems to be inching into the concert halls more regularly.
Re Myaskovsky, I think his cello sonatas and 13th quartet have also gotten some outings the last few years (the 13th quartet at Wigmore Hall in February 2011- Borodin Quartet, Pacifica Quartet in Portland Oregon April 9/10 2012, and a few times several years ago too ;
cello sonata 2 in Los Angeles in May 2012... I think none of these made it into BachTrack - which lists only Symphony 10 in Boston in April 2013 (yay!) and Silentium in London late September (this month) -but I found them using Google...)
(While I disagree strongly in regards JS Bach and Mozart- two of my favorite composers - etc. and two composers who weren't always quite _so_ sung themselves... and think that if we need to tear something down to build something up, maybe it should be something non-classical, since the classical world is a rather small place and the exercise threatens to be self-- again, shut -up-, Eric...)
@ Amphissa - _which_ Victor Herbert works are getting an airing? The only one I've heard live was the Irish Rhapspdy in a performance by the Rochester Philharmonic almost twenty years ago, and that was because it was the first piece the orchestra performed back in 1922. The audience giggled at the opening, then settled into the work, because it actually is very well made. I've never heard HERO AND LEANDER live, and the Suite Symphonique has not even been recorded - which to my mind is a blessing if Keith Brion's leaden hand were to be put to it, which tends to kill all it touches. At least HERO was recorded by Pittsburgh and Maazel; there's a great deal more to look to.
One composer on the sung/unsung fence is MacDowell, whose large scale works - few as they are - are colourful and intricate enough to reward concert airings, and the recent Naxos recordings prove this amply. I will also say re Suppe that the _very_ few times I've been privileged enough to hear the overtures live, orchestras love to play them - you can feel it in the way they attack licks before the beginning of the concerts. It's very revealing and gratifying.
I meant Herbert's "Suite Romantique", op.33. The full score is on IMSLP and is certainly virtuosically orchestrated. It would probably be exhilarating in performance.
MacDowell seems to have done reasonably well this year in the US comparatively speaking? Leaving out the piano concertos which seem to get regular outings now (though actually maybe I shouldn't-
even having one work that gets regular airings may count for "sung"ness now'days; consider you Holst until fairly recently, in the US anyway... :) ), ...
MacDowell's Hamlet & Ophelia closed out the Bloomington Symphony's season in April, his Suite No.2 "Indian" was performed in Ava, Missouri in their "Summerscape 2012" concert. (Probably other works also...)
Piano concertos? I'd love to see the A minor get half the attention of the D minor.
In Australia, the ascendant composers have been ones who, although mainstream sung composers, have been overshadowed here by Mozart, Brahms, Beethoven, et al., and only in the last five years or so have begun to be accorded the status they may enjoy in other countries. I am thinking of Elgar, Vaughan Williams, and Britten, long neglected but increasingly popular. I don't think any truly unsung composers are on the ascendant here, and the winner is probably Mahler - who was virtually unknown among my new Australian friends 20 years ago! ::)
The winners here over the past 40 years are definitely Bruckner and Mahler.
I would propose, albeit at an inferior quantity of performances, another "winner" over the past 40 years: Leos Janacek (born before Mahler, and I would say decidedly romantic).
Earlier he was certainly known, but surely underperformed.
Maybe starting points were the critical versions oh his main operas and the recordings by Mackerras. Since several years his main operas (nothwistanding the difficulties connected with the language) have entered the repertoire and have been staged quite often.
Cesar Franck: I am not convinced the fortunes of his Symphony are so fading (I have attended to several performances also in the last ten years). And his Violin Sonata (plus the Cello version) could compete for the most performed chamber work.
As for Berlioz Colin Davis recordings of the '60 weren't a starting point of knowledge for a composer whose fortunes always seemed to rely on the Symphonie Fantastique (plus Harold en Italie, Les nuits d'etè and some overtures)?.
And anyway the Symphonie Fantastique could compete for the most performed symphony in the whole reportoire.
Re MacDowell: point taken. The first concerto's first movement (only, alas) is being played November 10 2012 (Farmington Valley Symphony Orchestra, Ethan Wu, piano) but the 2nd concerto as usual is having relatively more performances, it's true. (Even the American Symphony- in 1997 I think, though their archives are confusingly badly linked here...- has played the 2nd but not the 1st?...)
I agree that Berlioz's fortunes have taken a massive leap forward in the past 40-50 years and that Davis has certainly been one of the main catalysts here - as Mackerras was with Janacek over the same period. I suppose my only observation would be that, being in my late fifties myself, I can't really remember the situation prior to that.
Following the same sort of chain of cause and effect, the question might therefore be: which conductors of today are currently responsible for major re-evaluations of lesser-known composers? And, if it is conductors who can make such a big difference, whom might we target in future and with which composers?
Maybe Libor Pesek among others have tried to do so with Josef Suk's orchestral works- though as with other well-known examples it's not a case of a single conductor bringing music entirely out of oblivion, but something more nuanced. Still... (as to Suk- who you did already mention, sorry... - I do think his Fantastic Scherzo and some other works have grown in recordings and performances lately- hrm. Let's see. Fantastic Scherzo, Houston, this coming November... Serenade for strings (admittedly one of his more popular works anyway), Thame, UK, October 2012... some chamber works too- will look for more later...
The Little Orchestra Society in NY played a very long list of Victor Herbert works in concert during the 2010 season. I can't remember what other orchestras pl;ayed Herbert works, but suspect that the LOS accounted for most of the performances. Which is why I'm not anticipating a sustained increase in performances.
You can find the cumulative stats in the summary report and the list of works performed by composer in the League of American Orchestras Repertoire Reports for the 2009/2010 season.
...following on from my earlier question, then, we might want to ask which composers (not which single works) ought to be on their way to becoming sung by virtue of the overall quality of their output?
Mark would no doubt say Raff. And I would agree, although he wouldn't be my own personal number 1 (which would be Draeseke). So, who would forum members suggest - based on consistent quality of output? After all, those who contribute to this forum are likely to have a pretty good feel for the composers who deserve the chance to make the leap to wider recognition...
Note: please bear in mind the revised remit of UC...
Composers who, albeit fairly or even well represented on record, should IMO be actually performed/more performed:
-Berwald
-Magnard
-d'Indy
-Martucci
-Parry
Conductors effective advocates of unsung : by far Neeme Jarvi appears to me n.1 (mostly on record).
In some cases one mediatic (and very good) conductor has dedicated his efforts also in the concert halls to a single unsung composer; I think of Muti with Martucci (whom he has often conducted in concert).
Is consistency sufficient? I adore (not meant to be damning with faint praise, truly) Rheinberger's music, especially his chamber works but other works as I hear them too, and "consistency" is a word that keeps coming to mind as I hear more of them- often with Robert Fuchs too; I am sure I will hear certain qualities I want to hear in a piece. For a composer to break into the repertoire in a sustained way I think more may be required, though- at least a few pieces with "hooks" of one kind or another (or which are, to sound less cynical, exceptionally good in at least one movement!...), or a biography with the same. :) Beethoven and Brahms each had their septet and German Requiem during their lifetimes and similar hits after, if I am making any sense- though actually I may not be addressing (or understanding) the point.
That's a very fair observation, Eric. Perhaps I should have said "consistently high quality of output - with certain compositions attracting debate about their possible status as masterpieces worthy of admission to the repertoire".
I'd say that there has been debate about the status of, say, Raff 5 and Draeseke 3 (and I take it that there is general agreement about the consistently high quality of the outputs of both composers). I would certainly agree that d'Indy fits (his 2nd Symphony is surely a masterpiece), as does Magnard. Martucci is a composer I personally love - and Muti is evidently convinced enough to perform him (though not the symphonies, I think) - but I'm not absolutely sure about his stature overall. Parry would surely qualify, (as would Stanford - PC2?), and Berwald is also a shoe-in.
Not convinced every composer's symphonies are their best works anyhow. Certainly not before Beethoven (Almost all of Mozart's piano concerti are more consistent and better than all but his last 4 symphonies, and equal to those; irrelevant here, though...), and true of many composers after. Martucci's 2nd piano concerto, which Muti has conducted in a number of venues with Oppitz (I have the Bayer orchestra recording -- not a commercial release (yet?)), may be better than either of his 2 (very good) symphonies (they do well enough by it, in my opinion :) ). (I should try to get to hear Toscanini in both his 2nd symphony and his 2nd piano concerto, though...)
Again, you make very good points, Eric. Thank you. My only observation would be that the best of Martucci is surely as much in his 2nd Symphony as in his PC2.
I've often thought of getting hold of Toscanini in Martucci, but have been put off by the ancient recorded sound. Perhaps I ought to explore his recordings; after all, Toscanini in Martucci ought to be quite a prospect, no?
I should have added that, for an unsung composer to become sung, there must be something distinctive about his/her music.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Sunday 09 September 2012, 21:18
My only observation would be that the best of Martucci is surely as much in his 2nd Symphony as in his PC2.
The art of transcription was not lost on Martucci either. An internet buddy of mine who is a most capable amateur has played Martucci's transcription of Verdi's La forza del destino and posted on you tube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H_dXnbZoCA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H_dXnbZoCA)
It is that good, one could almost mistake it for Thalberg.
A huge amount of solo pieces awaits premiers as well.
Thal
Who's hot: Golijov, Adams, Reich, Glass, Higdon...at least where I live
Who's not: Franck, Mendelssohn, Mahler (surprisingly), Berlioz (there's more than Symphonie Fantastique)
Who should be: Elgar (all we get is Enigma, the violin concerto, and a march or two. Never a symphony.) Schmidt, Korngold, Sibelius, Prokofieff. Granted, only Schmidt and Korngold count as unsungs, but there are many well-known composers whose presence in the concert hall is because of a few, often repeated works. I have heard Prokofieff symphonies 1 & 5 so many times I can't number them. But 3? Once, with Muti. The local orchestra did 6 once. Svetlanov treated us to 7. But 2 or 4? Never. When Sibelius shows up it's always symphonies 2 or 5, Finlandia or the violin concerto.
There was a time 20 years back when I thought that Mahler's overexposure would send conductors and orchestras looking for similar music and that the time had arrived for Korngold, Zemlinsky, and Schmidt. Alas, never happened. Thank God you live when you do when so much neglected music is available on cd!
Does anyone besides me think Carl Nielsen's star rose considerably during the same period that Bruckner
and Mahler became canonic?
And what of Sibelius? Has he fallen? Or fallen and risen again?
Certainly there was a Nielsen vogue here in the UK but it's long over in the concert hall at least, whereas my feeling is that Sibelius' popularity continues, aided by a spate of Baltic conductors of our major regional orchestras.
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Monday 10 September 2012, 07:36
..............my feeling is that Sibelius' popularity continues, aided by a spate of Baltic conductors of our major regional orchestras.
That's certainly true here in Aus. - all the Sibelius symphonies are very popular (even the 4th!), and so too the violin concerto, while his chamber works remain rather peripheral -
Voces Intimae was voted 99th in our Top 100 chamber works poll! :)
An incidental information about Martucci recordings and performances.
Exists (available?) a Sony recording of Pc 2 with pianist Carlo Bruno, Riccardo Muti and La Scala Orch. (coupled to "La Canzone dei Ricordi" with Mirella Freni).
Several years ago Muti programmed at La Scala Martucci Second Symphony, but withdrew it at the last minute (and I think he has not conducted the Symphonies)..
He conducted in several places "La Canzone dei Ricordi" (also with Barbara Frittoli and Violeta Urmana) and many times the short "Notturno" (often as an encore, always presented with a few and useful words by the conductor).
Between prominent conductors I remember that Chailly has conducted Symphony n.1, La Canzone dei Ricordi (with June Anderson), Novelletta and Notturno.
More recently Noseda has conducted La Canzone dei Ricordi with Barbara Frittoli, and Pc 2 with Oppitz.
But, apart from the worthy and useful revival/resurrection on record, and the Muti advocacy, Martucci remains unsung (or under-performed) even in Italy since the early '60.
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Monday 10 September 2012, 07:36
Certainly there was a Nielsen vogue here in the UK but it's long over in the concert hall at least...
Don't forget Davis' ongoing Nielsen cycle recorded live at the Barbican (London) with the LSO...
If this topic is to be taken seriously then I believe we have to look longer term say over a period of ten years. I recall that when Dohnanyi's piano concertos were recorded by Hyperion there were a number of critics who were very unflattering about him as a composer, yet now nearly all his music has been recorded, some pieces several times over and there are live performances of his works. Sergei Taneyev, disparagingly described as a 'composer's composer' whatever that means has now recordings of his symphonies and some of his chamber music. In London there was a time when you could hear all the Mahler symphonies in a year, year after year, this is no longer so. The reason Unsungs are unsung in my opinion is that they do not have 'staying power' by that I mean there is a core repertoire in each category of classical music and that only very slowly changes, everything else comes and goes. I will stick my neck out and say that now that Bax has been well recorded his popularity has peeked, watch out for his Cd's in second handshops.
Part of the problem is there is a lot of mistrust with the public, having to sit through thoroughly banal works sandwiched between old warhorses and they have become ever more sceptical of trying the unknown.
Quote from: giles.enders on Monday 10 September 2012, 12:21...thoroughly banal works...
Often contemporary and distinctly transient?
Quote from: Fronder on Saturday 08 September 2012, 16:57
Practically no difference here in Moscow. Same old Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninov, Prokofiev and Shostakovich. I actually think that repertoire has become even more norrow during the last decade. On the contrary, I was in Portugal this spring where I was able to hear Braga Santos' 4th symphony paired with Rachmaninov's 3rd concerto - surely that was one of the best concertos in my whole life :)
Wow Fronder, I was at the same concert! Great playing by Pizarro in the Rachmaninov (to ovational applause), but the real highlight was the Braga Santos 4th. Terrific performance only slightly marred by the fact that the audience thought that it had ended about two minutes before the coda.
And the Teatro Saõ Carlos is a great, great venue. Love it.
Quote from: semloh on Monday 10 September 2012, 07:58
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Monday 10 September 2012, 07:36
..............my feeling is that Sibelius' popularity continues, aided by a spate of Baltic conductors of our major regional orchestras.
That's certainly true here in Aus. - all the Sibelius symphonies are very popular (even the 4th!), and so too the violin concerto, while his chamber works remain rather peripheral - Voces Intimae was voted 99th in our Top 100 chamber works poll! :)
Yet Sibelius (and certainly Nielsen) is a virtual unknown in the concert halls of continental Europe if you don't count the Violin Concerto. My impression is that he's not that often played in Scandinavia, too. There are tremendous regional differences, that remain in place even in today's allegedly globalized scene.
I'd say that Elgar, while not that 'sung' over here in Japan, is at least well-known, whereas I get the impression that he has yet to be regularly performed in continental Europe
Donald Runnicles recently conducted a superb performance of Elgar 1 with the Berlin Philharmonic in Berlin:
http://www.digitalconcerthall.com/en/concert/2491/runnicles-grosz-quandt-strauss-elgar (http://www.digitalconcerthall.com/en/concert/2491/runnicles-grosz-quandt-strauss-elgar)
The last season of the Berliner Philharmoniker, besides Symphony n.1, included "Enigma Variations" (cond. Rattle) and "The Dream of Gerontius" (cond. Barenboim). I have seen that in the span of one month in Berlin "Enigma Variations" were performed by Rattle, Marriner and Darlington with three different orchestras.
I see that Elgar is slowly finding (some) space in countries like France and Italy where he was seriously neglected.
In my city, Torino, not a metropolis, last season we had Symphony n.1 under Pappano and Rome Santa Cecilia, next season we will have the Cello Concerto with Sol Gabetta.
(A short digression .Quite often I have heard as an encore "Nimrod" (Pappano, C.Davis, D.Matheuz, D.Gatti, Y.Temirkanov -the last 4 or 5 times). Temirkanov shows also a predilection in performing as an encore "Salut d'amour" (listened also with the Baltimore Sym.).
Very interesting, Alberto. Perhaps Elgar's time has finally come?
One of the oddest and, in a way, saddest occasions I encountered was at a North American Victorian Studies Association (NAVSA) conference at Yale University two years ago. The highly-touted orchestral centerpiece of the whole affair was a performance of the "rarely-performed" Elgar A-flat Symphony by the New Haven orchestra. (Good performance, but - ) It certainly is rarely performed over here, but for a performance designed for such an audience the piece hardly qualifies - there wasn't even a mention of Elgar in any of the music-oriented papers! There is so much I would have rather heard live!! (Our own Rochester Philharmonic performed William Henry Fry's "Macbeth" overture AND the Amy Beach Symphony last year, the latter at the opening concert, and both received enormous ovations! And those "unprompted" by outside considerations!)
I suppose, thanks to Dutton, Richard Arnell is less un-sung (can one say that?) anyway, he is certainly more sung than he was. All on recording of course, still hardly any performances. Why don't the Proms schedule the amazing third symphony or even the potentially very poplular Piano Concerto?
You may have a point about Arnell; however, please do read our revised remit...
http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,3681.0.html (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,3681.0.html)
I have noticed two opposing trends: in the concert hall, the audience for classical music has aged and become more and more middlebrow. Looking back recently over the concertos that Helene Grimaud has performed, you realise that concert promoters have to fill halls with middlebrow listeners who are not prepared to listen to anything they haven't heard before. So there is a shrinking repertoire in public performance.
But there is a great expansion of recordings of repertoire that you are remotely unlikely to hear in concert ever. The only performance of a Stanford symphony I can recall in the last decade in Dublin - his birthplace, for goodness' sake! - was by a good amateur orchestra. But we now have two excellent recordings of the complete symphonies. And although beyond the horizon of this group, the same can be said for renaissance music: concert performances are rarer, but the standard and coverage in recordings is remarkable.
So possibly the question needs to be modified. In the concert hall, more and more composers and repertoire are being relegated to the sidelines as the relentless pressure to sell tickets pushes promoters towards the classical 'pops'. However, the independent recording industry has realised that an audience of a thousand people need not be in one place at one time. They just need to be found – and that's where the internet comes in.
Yes, I think you are right, except that perhaps the concert hall remains the forum for premieres - especially of new works - sandwiched between the 'pops' to help audiences digest them!
That said, I don't believe that concerts play much of a role in shaping musical tastes, though I have no clear idea as to what does - and even less of an idea as to how composers become sung/unsung! ;D
Quote... I believe we have to look longer term say over a period of ten years
I quite agree, Giles. However, I hope we can consider unsung composers on more than one temporal scale of fame and influence. One wonderful thing about modern media is the way it encourages people like ourselves to connect, transcending distance, and to share our enthusiams, which are no less universal in spirit for being ineluctably personal. I also quite agree, Giles, that Rattle, say, is unlikely to take up Bax the way Haitink took up VW. On the other hand, the pianist Michael Endres and the cellist Johannes Moser have advanced Bax's cause in the years since Handley's spirited cycle. So perhaps a more rounded version of the composer will prevail, thanks in part to the Continent. And meanwhile, after several decades I myself have not tired of Bax -- or Nielsen -- and am content to see a remarkable number of his works (not to mention Cyril Scott's) available for enthusiasts like myself.
In the world of literature, the Canon seems more elastic, more accommodating of strata, of writers with specialized audiences. Wilkie Collins, for example. Or Philip Larkin. Or my father's favorite, George Meredith. I hope this is the direction in which art music reception is going, too.
A prime example of a relatively unsung composer getting enormous amounts of publicity which other composers can only dream of and his work played over and over again is Gorecki with his Symphony of Sorrowful Songs. Now one never hears it. Could he be described as a 'one work wonder'? He is almost forgotten except among the cognoscenti
Actually, a number of his other pieces (e.g. Totus Tuus) get airtime on ClassicFM, so he's not totally forgotten.
He's certainly a one-hit-wonder here in Aus. - and decidedly not a romantic! ;D
I am uncertain whether to have started a new thread as opposed to commenting on a decade old thread of unsungs moving to sungs. However I haven't seen any follow-up thread on this specifically. Looking at this thread though I don't see any movement in the last decade - the only 2 composers I see having moved out of Unsung to fringe mainstream are Samuel Barber and Erich Korngold, although their operas are seldom performed other than Die Tote Stadt.
In fact in looking at bachtrack just now I see a concerning stagnation or even backsliding for composers I thought were moving in the same direction as with Zemlinsky. He seems to be regressing rather than building momentum from his return that was fairly active in the 80s and 90s. The same seems to be the case for Szymanovsky. Even Scriabin has surprisingly few listed performances of any note. Schoeck is entirely invisible with only one bachtrack performance as is Raff with 3. The recent emphasis on women composers doesn't seem to have helped much with Louise Farrenc, who has 25 performances but the vast majority are just a couple of overtures as filler. I am not including Glazunov since there was no prior momentum of concert performance to mislead.
Am I missing something or are the Unsungs usually mentioned with Korngold and Barber actually losing ground? Since I am in the US I don't have the best feel for what is going on in Europe. Sorry to revive such an old thread but didn't see a more recent similar dedicated thread.
It depends on what context we're talking about. The concert repertoire only gives occasional evidence of expansion, but the recorded repertoire continues to be extended and shows no sign of slowing down - as this website demonstrates.
Thanks for your reply. Yes I was careful to specify concert performances as I have no serious concerns regarding recordings, all things considered, particularly of chamber and orchestral. The quality of the recordings is variable but that is always true. The principal recordings concern I have is with the singing of the Romantic repertoire as that style is not in vogue with current vocal instruction as far as I can tell. It seems tilted to bel canto and Baroque. However your careful wording does seem to indicate that I am not wildly misreading what is happening regarding these apparent also rans to Barber and Korngold.
The performance situation with Scriabin I find particularly perplexing as he had a distinctive personal style and made what I consider the last major original addition to the piano repertoire on top of his orchestral works.
I can't easily get to concerts these days, so my focus is recordings and the hope that they might lead to concert performances. Perhaps the imminent end of the Bruckner bi-centenary will release conductors from the need to record and re-record his symphonies.
For myself, what I'd like to see is the expansion of the 19th/early 20th century symphonic repertoire - along the lines of Hyperion's RPC series, perhaps.
Alan, that's an excellent idea and, with no soloist to pay for, would also be a cheaper proposition for Hyperion to record! Perhaps concertos sell better than symphonies, though.
Moving to the question in the thread, I agree that Korngold has moved into the mainstream and I suspect that Florence Price has done so, at least temporarily, but I can't think of anyone else. Rather, the trend is the other way in concert halls at least. With fewer concerts programming an overture, Glinka and Weber have all but disappeared for example. Is much Mendelssohn programmed any more? Certainly the concertos or anything other than the Italian Symphony are rarities.The number of concert repertoire staples is shrinking, not growing.
Luckily the recorded repertoire has exploded in recent years and, like Alan, that's my focus.
Re. Korngold: the former 'sniffy' attitude on the part of certain critics towards the Violin Concerto has definitely disappeared - and quite right too.
Thank you both for your replies. i was a bit disconcerted and saddened by my sojourn through bachtrack which I had not done as extensively for a year. We are well past the pandemic effects so this seems the current reality, like it or not. And the sniffy attitude to Korngold extended far past the Violin Concerto. Even the usually reliable Opera Magazine UK barfed over Korngold's Die Tote Stadt all through the 80s and 90s.
I agree with Mr Thomas that if such a series modeled on Hyperion included the Concerto repertoire it could be successful. Not sure of the current audience fervor for symphonies they haven't heard 100 times.
As for Samuel Barber, I am just basing my comment that he has moved to the fringe mainstream on the bachtrack results just now which surprised me a bit. The listings show both geographical distribution as well as varied selection of compositions. There were a fair number of performances in central Europe. I am frustrated by the absence of his fine opera IMO, the revised Antony and Cleopatra but at least a concert performance of Vanessa is being performed next year in the US.
Florence Price was on a par with Louise Farrenc in the bachtrack results. less than half of Barber and Korngold. I do think these two women have a chance to survive at some low rate of performance around Szymanovky's level..
Just so we are all well advised as to what will seize the classical recording biz in the near future:
1827 Death Ludwig van Beethoven !!!!!
1828 Death of Franz Schubert !!!!!
1829 -
1830 -
1831 -
1832 -
1833 Birth Johannes Brahms !!!!!
So a brief window of opportunity for Unsungs from 2029 -2032.
QuotePerhaps concertos sell better than symphonies, though.
Simon Perry at Hyperion did tell me once that, by and large, CDs of concertos do seem to do better than symphonies - unless, sadly, they are recordings of the same old, same old...
I find this odd - and it doesn't seem to hold true everywhere: just look at the number of interesting unsung symphonies recorded by CPO. They wouldn't keep on producing these if they didn't sell.
Mr Vaughan,
It might be a UK - Germany difference for the symphony. I would have to agree with Simon Perry at least in the US and Canada.
Well, cpo are doing a fine job on the symphony, so I expect that to continue.
QuoteAnd the sniffy attitude to Korngold extended far past the Violin Concerto. Even the usually reliable Opera Magazine UK barfed over Korngold's Die Tote Stadt all through the 80s and 90s.
My memory goes way back, though - certainly before Korngold's operas were recorded. My copy of the Penguin Stereo Record Guide (1975) has just three entries, two of the VC (Heifetz, Hoelscher) and one of the Symphony (Kempe), with the usual comments on the VC such as 'touches of kitsch that justify the tired but true quip about more Korn than gold'. Oh dear.
I don't think we can complain too much with regard to recordings of Korngold nearly fifty years later...
Just a quick further observation: not all of Samuel Barber's music is suitable for discussion here.
Just to clarify. UK Magazine's references were to occasional stage performances of Die Tote Stadt and I think in one case Violanta from the 50s on into the early Oughts. Has any other fine composer ever suffered such sustained abuse (distinct from neglect)?
But yes I take your point about Korngold recordings particularly since many have excellent sonics and performances. Korngold's music seems to draw out musicians in the most positive way. And I still regularly play the original vinyl box by Leinsdorf et al. The singers never sounded better and a performance that equals the v Matacic Die Lustige Witwe. Penguin's Witwe comment "more theatrical than the stage" could be echoed for the Leinsdorf.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Friday 30 August 2024, 18:57Just a quick further observation: not all of Samuel Barber's music is suitable for discussion here.
I understand the caution with composers far past the WW1 cutoff. Anyway based on the bachtrack results I am going to dial back on comments of both Korngold and Barber as I think they are moving out of the Unsung category (although things could always change).
Quote from: Maury on Friday 30 August 2024, 19:09I understand the caution with composers far past the WW1 cutoff.
With respect, we expect a bit more than caution:
<<Please do not post about composers or compositions which clearly fall outside our definition of "romantic". Your post will not be approved. If you are in any doubt, and in any event if the music was written after 1918, please email or PM a moderator before posting.>>
https://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,3681.0.html
QuoteHas any other fine composer ever suffered such sustained abuse
Yes: Raff, and for far longer. A much more important composer also.
Re Raff. I wasn't aware of that. I thought it was just neglect, but things don't necessarily all travel over the Atlantic. Another fine composer unjustly maligned then. But his situation on bachtrack is still dire. When you have fewer performances than Glazunov you know you are in trouble.
No, not mere neglect, but a wholesale dismissal of his importance and achievement. Beyond recordings, it's still going on.
I do agree with Alan that most of Barber doesn't belong here, not only stylistically but in the whole question of being unsung. Therefore, in the spirit of our guidelines and the ancient tradition of apophasis, I will not mention my opinion that he never really was an unsung composer, having been celebrated throughout his lifetime and beyond, nor will I discuss as evidence works like "The School for Scandal" or the first and second Essays, which have remained in the repertory of orchestras since his death in 1981.
I would suggest not relying solely on BachTrack as a meter, btw.
eschiss As a scientist I am familiar with the issue of non-random samples. But at least bachtrack is not tied to a particular locale or genre. Russian composers because of the present conflict are certainly systematically under represented due to bachtrack restrictions, but home country performance in general is almost a category unto itself in most cases.. If you have an issue with any of the comparisons I made for composers Not named Korngold or Barber I would be very interested in learning about it. I do not want to be inaccurate but just gave the best swag at this I could manage.
Let's leave the issue of evidence here and move on, please - particularly as Barber doesn't fit here and Korngold has clearly migrated to the 'sung' category, both in concerts/on the operatic stage and in recordings.
Maury: please don't assume why someone says something when it's better to ask. BachTrack depends on self-reporting, so it underreports ensembles and performances from very many countries, the US included.
Point made, Eric - thanks. Now let's move on.
I don't think Berwald's been mentioned on this thread. (Maybe because he's not absolutely definitely "sung". When I first heard of him in Summer '87 and first heard a work of his sometime around 1988-9, he was pretty unsung. By comparison to -then- his symphonies at least are well-known now :))
These borderline composers can ebb and flow. Back in the 60s and 70s there was a fair bit of Berwald issued on the major labels EMI and Decca in both the US and UK as well as budget labels Nonesuch and Turnabout. If memory serves there were even LP boxes of Berwald. The Grand Septet was a well known work and I think played in the US and all the symphonies were recorded multiple times. I am not sure how often the symphonies were programmed in the US but I assume at least occasionally in Europe. By the early 80s I agree that his name disappeared mostly, certainly in the US. Sic transit gloria mundi. I don't really consider him Unsung but just IMO.
Berwald is one of those composers of whose mastery we need continual reminders lest, having been rediscovered, he falls into neglect once again. As Maury says, he's on the border of the public's consciousness. I certainly wouldn't consider him sufficiently sung not to be worthy of discussion here.