Here is a new game.
Imagine somehow you could take all the romantic piano concertos ever written, and somehow condense them into a single work that would be the expression of the dominant features of the lot of them. I call this the ur-concerto. It is the piano concerto that is most like every other romantic piano concerto. It has all the most commonly used gestures. So for instance, if the most common way to start the slow movement was a wistful theme introduced by the cellos, that's what the ur-concerto will have. And so on.
The question is, which actual piano concerto most resembles the ur-concerto? It will of necessity be by a minor composer, because it will be an assembly of every possible cliché in the repertoire. I have struggled with this for ages, but of course, the concertos that get recorded usually are those that have some originality!
Any suggestions for the most hackneyed romatic piano concerto?
The Grieg. I love it because it is pretty much just the sort of synthesis which you are describing. He may be a sung composer but I think that he's essentially a minor figure, and I'm not just referring to his small stature!
Didn't Hoffnung do the ultimate ur-concerto?
... I would think an Ur-concerto would be something arranged from that Gilgamesh oratorio... never mind, 2 days too late.
I think you nailed it Mark. the Grieg....... Kind of the only major work of a minor composer.
J
Jerfilm- ok, I really have to disagree. His string quartet in G minor is much better, and definitely a major work.
Anyway...
This is quite strange as I also keep coming back to Grieg whenever I think about this :) but I'm sure there must be a less talented example.
The Hoffnung you mention is the Concerto Populari by Franz Reizenstein (a neglected composer well worth tracking down). It doesn't count because it is a mass of quotes rather than clichés.
Perhaps the Bortkiewicz 1st. It is an amalgamation of Chopin/Liszt/Henselt/Rachmaninoff with a touch of Addinsell to finish it off.
Perhaps that is why I love it more than any other.
Thal
Yes, that's a good nomination, Thal.
Did no one ever hear Victor Borge play his mix of Greig, Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninov. It was quite surreal as they are all well known to me and the change to bits from each was both amusing but also said something else, it made me more aware of how I assumed what was coming.
Tchaik 1?
Quote from: Alan Howe on Thursday 04 April 2013, 11:35
Tchaik 1?
Tchaikovsky 1 has a really unusual 1st movement structure, which disqualifies it out of hand :D
OK, Gauk: let's have your take on the so-called ur-concerto, then. It's easy to take pop shots at everyone else's suggestions, but we haven't heard yours yet (guns at the ready, chaps! ;))
BTW 'ur-concerto' suggests 'original concerto', i.e., in this context, the concerto from which all other romantic piano concertos derive. Obviously this isn't what you mean...
My reservation about this notion of the ur-concerto has to do with origins of the ideas that are so common.
If a piano concerto became so successful and popular that other composers modeled their own works after that one, then it would become the ur-concerto, and it would sound somewhat hackneyed because it had been emulated so much. Looked at from this direction, the ur-concerto would seen as a great piece because of its influenc e on other composers, and yet might seem less intriguing to listen to just because it had been emulated and reworked so many times.
On the other hand, if a concerto were just a pastiche of the many ideas of other great composers, a totally derivative work with little originality of its own, it would qualify as an ur-concerto in the sense defined here -- quoting and paraphrasing the greats who had gone before. Yet it would be held in lower esteem, because it was so derivative.
I would tend to put Grieg in the former category. His concerto was immensely popular and widely influential as a result. I think we've heard it so much, both in its original form and in its emulations by other coomposers, that we've tired of it. Yet is was, when originally written, an imaginative and enjoyable piece, worthy of its popularity.
Of the real derivative works that crib from so many previous works, I offer Andre Mathieu. His Piano Concerto No. 4 is surely one of the most derivative works ever penned, although others might select his 3rd as even more worthy of this award. It's fun to listen to Mathieu, because you've heard it all before. It's like visiting old friends.
Runner-up in the latter category, I would submit Paderewski. A fine work, fun to listen to, but wholly derivative.
A perceptive post, Dave. Thanks - and I agree...
As Alan says.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Friday 05 April 2013, 16:40
OK, Gauk: let's have your take on the so-called ur-concerto, then. It's easy to take pop shots at everyone else's suggestions, but we haven't heard yours yet (guns at the ready, chaps! ;))
BTW 'ur-concerto' suggests 'original concerto', i.e., in this context, the concerto from which all other romantic piano concertos derive. Obviously this isn't what you mean...
I really don't have a good answer, which is a major reason for posing the question. I will be looking out the Mathieu!
Clearly the ur-concerto is not literally the "source concerto" but one which sounds as if it might have been.
The problem is that 'ur-concerto' can only mean one thing, if language is to mean anything at all - and that is 'original concerto'. In German, Urfaust, for example, is the original version of Goethe's Faust
Clearly you mean something different, but I'm not sure what...
BTW "Urkonzert' (the German equivalent) doesn't seem to exist as a concept in German, so I'm really struggling here because I really don't understand the question you're posing...
"Generic Concerto" maybe?
Or 'most full of romantic clichés concerto'? In which case I would expect it to be something like a compendium of existing stock gestures - the sort of thing best done by later, imitative composers, e.g. Addinsell, Mathieu or - tongue firmly planted in cheek - Reizenstein.
If by ur-concerto you go by what Alan says, in terms of 'source' and we specify that it is an ur-Romantic concerto, I would point to none other than Beethoven's 3rd. I've heard it referred to as the first 'Romantic' piano concerto, from which all others are descended. If we're looking at the most 'generic' concerto the Paderewski is a good example, however I don't consider it to be distinctively 'generic'. But we're limiting this to piano concertos. Nobody mentioned violin or cello concertos, and I don't see an instrument specified in the topic header.
Quotedistinctively 'generic'
Surely an oxymoron, Jim? Definitively generic maybe, but something can't be both distinctive and generic can it?
Quote from: JimL on Saturday 06 April 2013, 21:42
If by ur-concerto you go by what Alan says, in terms of 'source' and we specify that it is an ur-Romantic concerto, I would point to none other than Beethoven's 3rd. I've heard it referred to as the first 'Romantic' piano concerto, from which all others are descended.
I'd say that you can't have Beethoven PC3 without Mozart PC24, though. Oh dear - the law of infinite regression?
There are two über-concertos for me: Joseph Marx' Romantic Piano Concerto, and York Bowen's 4th. Almost everything I want in any piece. Then Tchaikovsky and Medtner.
I have never heard of Beethoven 3 referred to as the first "romantic" concerto and find the suggestion baffling to say the least.
Thal
Thal, I did some googling:
http://www.talkclassical.com/1005-current-listening-623-print.html
(http://www.talkclassical.com/1005-current-listening-623-print.html)
However, this article suggests Dussek in G minor:
http://members.klosterneuburg.net/handerle/COMPOSER.HTM (http://members.klosterneuburg.net/handerle/COMPOSER.HTM)
Quote from: minacciosa on Saturday 06 April 2013, 22:34
über-concertos
What on earth's that? Do you mean 'ultimate romantic concerto'? If so, neither would be even close for me. It'd have to be....yes, you've guessed it: Rach 3. No contest. IMHO, of course.
...
.... all 3 Medtner?
Well I suppose we get tired of Greig, yet we heard Jon Parker play this with the Vancouver Symphony Orchestra this winter in an absolutely stunning and gorgeous performance that had me teary a couple of times. When you hear a performance like that I think it re-invigorates your entrusiasm and love for a work.....
Jerry
I once made the mistake of watching that old Grieg bio-film Song of Norway. I couldn't listen to any Grieg for about a year after that...
Quote from: Alan Howe on Saturday 06 April 2013, 22:54
Thal, I did some googling:
Perhaps I should have done first ;D. Probably worth a thread of it's own.
I can appreciate the Dussek suggestion and there are even hints of what is to come in Tomasek Op.18, Weber 1 and Steibelt 5, but to me, the first romantic concerto is Field 2.
Good suggestion re the Bowen 4 for the ur-concerto. Has just about everything.
Thal
Quote from: jerfilm on Saturday 06 April 2013, 23:23
When you hear a performance like that I think it re-invigorates your enthusiasm and love for a work...
Absolutely right. My experience too...
Quote from: Alan Howe on Saturday 06 April 2013, 21:07
The problem is that 'ur-concerto' can only mean one thing, if language is to mean anything at all - and that is 'original concerto'. In German, Urfaust, for example, is the original version of Goethe's Faust
Clearly you mean something different, but I'm not sure what...
It's a metaphor. For what, see the original post.
It isn't a metaphor - unless 'metaphor' has now changed meaning too. For example a metaphor in this context might be something such as: "The romantic piano concerto is a David and Goliath contest".
No, 'ur-concerto' was clearly your attempt to give a name to something that evidently exists in your mind; unfortunately the name you chose and what you were thinking of turn out to be two different things because 'ur-concerto', if words are to have any meaning, can only mean 'original concerto', which you say wasn't what you were thinking of. Hence the confusion.
Anyway, until we have a suggestion from you as to the sort of work you mean, with reasons, the confusion - with all due respect - will remain. Can you give it a go, please? After all, the thread's gone on for quite awhile now...
(You say ur-concerto, he hears errrr-concerto; let's call the whole thing off...)
My feeling exactly. We're going nowhere fast.
I'll throw in my lot with Eric - call a halt to the thing. Even if this quest for, an erm, ur-thing succeeds in hitting some target I doubt if that would have any significance. I'm also rather upset at seeing our very able administrator displaying considerable patience in a thread that's going nowhere but around in circles. Poor chap has rather better things to do!
Quote from: Alan Howe on Saturday 06 April 2013, 22:59
Quote from: minacciosa on Saturday 06 April 2013, 22:34
über-concertos
What on earth's that? Do you mean 'ultimate romantic concerto'? If so, neither would be even close for me. It'd have to be....yes, you've guessed it: Rach 3. No contest. IMHO, of course.
Of course Rach 3 is great and I should have mentioned it, but it's not nearly as overtly Romantic as Marx and Bowen. It's the tunes and the harmony, both of which go beyond Rachmaninov in originality and lusciousness.
I've never thought particularly highly of the Marx PC - it doesn't seem to me to have the ability to stir the late romantic soul as much as Rach PC3, but I take your point in terms of its idiom, which is certainly beyond Rachmaninov.
If we're still talking ultimate late-romantic PCs here, my two candidates would be the toothsome offerings by Karl Senn...
Score: http://www.musikland-tirol.at/html/html/musikedition/komponisten/senn/divpdfs/01Klavierkonzertopus22.pdf (http://www.musikland-tirol.at/html/html/musikedition/komponisten/senn/divpdfs/01Klavierkonzertopus22.pdf)
CD available here: http://www.musikland-tirol.at/cdeditionen/cd-editionen-2011/klingende-kostbarkeiten.html (http://www.musikland-tirol.at/cdeditionen/cd-editionen-2011/klingende-kostbarkeiten.html)
...and Thomas Schmidt-Kowalski:
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Thomas-Schmidt-Kowalski-1949-2013-Klavierkonzert-g-moll-op-108/hnum/4982609 (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Thomas-Schmidt-Kowalski-1949-2013-Klavierkonzert-g-moll-op-108/hnum/4982609)
Both have a number of those 'cor!' moments that this sort of concerto should have.