In another thread (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,4470.msg47935.html#msg47935) FBerwald wrote:
Quotethe serene conclusion I always wanted the Dvorak Cello Concerto to have!
I do so agree. I always think that Dvorak's judgement failed him when he ended the work with what is, to my ears, a jarringly positive orchestral tutti, when the passage which precedes it, suffused with nostalgia and regret after all the heroics which come before it, is so affecting and effective. Ending that magnificent work with a continuation of that material would, to me (and obviously FBerwald), have made for a much more satisfying and poetic conclusion.
Of course, that's not what Dvorak did, but what do others think?
A slight disagreement from me. This is one of my favorite of all endings. It becomes especially poignant (for me, at least) when one understands that Dvorak originally wrote a very short coda and ended the concerto quietly. However, during the course of his writing the work, his sister in law, Josefina Kaunitzová, with whom Dvorak had been deeply in love, d(but ended up marrying her sister instead) fell ill and died. It was after that that he rewrote the coda and added the ending which we hear today.
This was well documented in Dr. Robert Greenbergs (University of California, Berkeley) 15th lecture in the Great Learning Courses course series entitled The Concerto. The lecture is only about Dvorak and Dr. Greenberg plays both endings.
But then, maybe everyone already knew that....... 8) 8) 8)
Jerry
Since my wife is a cellist, I've heard this concerto played at least 700 bazillion times, including most commercial recordings, broadcast recordings, and innumerable live performances by the greatest cellists, aspiring students, and countless in between.
There are reasons why the Dvorak is by a huge margin the the best known, most played and most popular cello concerto ever written -- and considered one of the masterpieces of the repertoire. The ending is one of those reasons.
IMO, an ending that was a continuation of the material would have been predictable, and frankly, sadly ordinary -- trite in fact. The ending he finally crafted (and the reason is irrelevant) is, to my ears, inspired and sublime.
I thought it was the other way around!... that the sad, elegiac coda was added to what would have been a much more joyous and perhaps abrupt conclusion - and then he does add some loud final bars at the end of that coda, but that it's the slow coda itself that was the afterthought. Hrm... that turns my notions right on the ear!
Amphissa- well, not necessarily. The ending to Shostakovich concerto 2 (a very different sort of slow quiet ending) works just fine... It's often in the how and not just the what...
I like it how it is. Nostalgia trumped by heroism...
Obviously just me (and FBerwald), then. :)
I believe I might have contributed to an avalanche. My original comment was that the ending "I would have like the Dvorak Cello Concerto to have". No way am I arrogant enough to assume that I know better than the Maestro who penned the New World Symphony and other masterpieces. It was just ... well musing. I believe Dvorak's Original ending didn't even have the nostalgic interlude before the conclusion, rather it surged on into a triumphant finale. As @jerfilm mentioned, it was the death of Josefina that caused him to alter the coda. The October release of both Dvorak's Cello Concertos by Steven Isserlis on Hyperion has the original ending inserted on a separate track.
Back to the close of the concerto. I have heard many people say that the close was a miscalculation by Dvorak. I will still take Dvorak's final thoughts over any "improvements" offered by anybody else... even myself!
... ;D ;D but Mark and I will Day dream of a diff. ending sometimes!!! ;D ;D ;D
Maybe this will be of interest regarding this discussion.
http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDA67917&vw=dc (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDA67917&vw=dc)
Interesting. Thanks.
Oh, I had forgotten that Dvorak had penned in a phrase from Josefina's favorite song. Thanks for the reference to Hyperion......
"and in her memory he extended the final coda with reminiscences from both the first and second movements —including another quotation from her beloved song" - that seemed closer to what I thought. Isserlis' notes on Hyperion don't claim that a quiet, contemplative ending (as in last few bars, I mean) was actually known to have been considered before that point.
No, quite the reverse. What might be called the memorial passage of reminiscence was added to the closing pages, and in the process Dvorak rewrote what is described in the Hyperion notes as the "surprisingly abrupt" original ending to give us the one we know today. I never claimed that he ever considered a quiet ending, I just voiced the opinion that it would be effective way to finish the work.
And you are perfectly at liberty to say so, of course!
Wouldn't a serene ending have been rather a drastic departure for Dvorak? Off hand, I cannot think of any large scale orchestral work by him which ends quietly....a characteristic which he shares, I think, with Saint-Saens. Am I right?
The Water Goblin (Vodnik, Op.107, B195, 1896) isn't as large-scale, but it ends quietly (just checked the score...) - about a whole page and a half of (more or less) pianissimo in B minor... the Wild Dove ends quietly, too. (Even moreso.) Or are his symphonic poems too brief to count? I don't know what you mean, really.
As to Saint-Saëns and still talking symphonic poems, there's Le Rouet d'Omphale. (I'd agree both composers much preferred loud- and happy- endings in their orchestral (and probably also their choral/orchestral, Dvorak's Requiem in B-flat minor being an exception to the "happy") music- but not quite exclusively.
The 9th hardly has an extended quiet ending, though.
55 bars (many/most of them of them Meno mosso/Andante, Tempo I -- Più lento) from the beginning of quiet coda (to the end) in The Wild Dove, I think. How long does it need to be extended? (And no one said "extended", anyway...)
Danse Macabre by Saint-Saens ends very serenly, especially compared to the rest of the piece.
Yes, you're right of course. I was thinking of the abstract rather than the programmatic works.
Quote from: TerraEpon on Saturday 20 July 2013, 07:00
Danse Macabre by Saint-Saens ends very serenly, especially compared to the rest of the piece.
I would call it the stillness of death rather than serene considering the wild music before it!
I think the serene ending is one of the reasons Rachmaninoff's "The Bells" never achieved popularity, despite its surpassing beauty. People seem to always expect a rousing conclusion and suffer disappointment if it is insufficiently raucous. If he were seeking to write a popular work, Rachmaninoff would have added a 5th movement, the arrival in heaven featuring blaring trumpets and celebratory chorus.
I haven't yet decided which composer in history to blame for this, but I view it as a limitation to creativity.
The Gabrieli family, of course. (Joking...)