Unsung Composers

The Music => Composers & Music => Topic started by: thalbergmad on Thursday 03 April 2014, 21:04

Title: A concerto with no name
Post by: thalbergmad on Thursday 03 April 2014, 21:04
Amongst the most recent pile of old stuff I bought from e bay was a handwritten piano concerto. The seller had no idea who had written it and the sheets themselves give no clue as to the composer. In addition, it is imcomplete. Here are photos of the first 3 pages.

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a94/Thalbergmad/SDC11987.jpg) (http://s9.photobucket.com/user/Thalbergmad/media/SDC11987.jpg.html)

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a94/Thalbergmad/SDC11988.jpg) (http://s9.photobucket.com/user/Thalbergmad/media/SDC11988.jpg.html)

Six bottles of Speckled Hen to whoever can name the composer.

Luv

Thal
Title: Re: A concerto with no name
Post by: semloh on Tuesday 08 April 2014, 04:39
Speckled Hen?? Darn it! I knew I should have learnt how to read music.  :(

Intriguing - it will be interesting to see who identifies it...
Title: Re: A concerto with no name
Post by: thalbergmad on Tuesday 08 April 2014, 07:41
I have someone who knows the tune but cannot remember the composer. This is as mystery that I feel will be solved.

Thal
Title: Re: A concerto with no name
Post by: kolaboy on Tuesday 08 April 2014, 23:15
If it were the Tausig I'd buy EVERYONE here a bottle of Speckled Hen.
Title: Re: A concerto with no name
Post by: thalbergmad on Wednesday 09 April 2014, 07:54
I fear not. The general consensus thus far is that it is British around 1930's.

Thal
Title: Re: A concerto with no name
Post by: Alan Howe on Wednesday 09 April 2014, 08:54
Quote...I'd buy EVERYONE here a bottle of Speckled Hen

Saw the Speckled Hen delivery lorry a couple of days ago and thought my luck was in. Then realised I hadn't even made a guess as to the identity of this PC  ;)

Title: Re: A concerto with no name
Post by: mjkFendrich on Wednesday 09 April 2014, 09:58
QuoteThe general consensus thus far is that it is British around 1930's.

Perhaps John Foulds' Dynamic Triptych ??  At least the rhythm reminds me of that work.
Title: Re: A concerto with no name
Post by: vicharris on Wednesday 09 April 2014, 12:46
Not that great at reading music without a piano to try it on, but first phrase seems reminiscent of Joseph Marx Pf Cto No. 1?
Title: Re: A concerto with no name
Post by: vicharris on Wednesday 09 April 2014, 12:56
Really bad at it, not it as per IMSLP. Sorry
Title: Re: A concerto with no name
Post by: JimL on Wednesday 09 April 2014, 17:02
Hardly the Marx, Vic.  If it's the E Major concerto you're referring to, take a look at the key signature of the MS.  D minor or F Major.  I'm willing to bet D minor, from what I can see of the score.
Title: Re: A concerto with no name
Post by: eschiss1 on Wednesday 09 April 2014, 17:19
This is assuming it's the very opening of the score, not of one of the movements, which it's impossible to tell from a partial MS, isn't it?... also, erm... is this an "already known piece" of which this is an ms (autograph, copy, whatever, but ms) fragment, and hence the guessing game?
I had had the impression from the opening post that this could be a new piece entirely.
Sorry about the silly questions from this corner, as always :(
Eric
Title: Re: A concerto with no name
Post by: thalbergmad on Wednesday 09 April 2014, 19:43
The pictures I have posted were the first 3 pages of the first movement. There are 3 movements in total, the last being incomplete.

Thal
Title: Re: A concerto with no name
Post by: eschiss1 on Thursday 10 April 2014, 03:34
... hrm.

The style doesn't look like 1930s British to me, but more late 19th-century Romantic, btw, in a restrained sort of way.  (But the opening Eingang looks/sounds-on-humming, very familiar to me, somehow.)

3 movements, last movement incomplete... that in itself rings a bell, too.  What D minor concerto have I heard of of which that's true... hrm. Going to go cheat with Google, alas and alack if not with alack-rity...
Title: Re: A concerto with no name
Post by: BerlinExpat on Thursday 10 April 2014, 09:23
The composer has written "ORCHESTRA", so that rules out quite a lot I should think! English or Italian? Can a PDF of the first three pages be made available so one can play it?
Title: Re: A concerto with no name
Post by: matesic on Thursday 10 April 2014, 09:48
The tune in the orchestral part is uncannily like the scherzo of Brahms's second concerto. A very fair copy of a 2-piano reduction - do you think it might be a competition piece? If so it was probably disqualified for plagiarism. Was it actually left unfinished, or is the ms just missing its final pages? Odd that there's no tempo indication. Apart from English and Italian, I believe there's another large English-speaking nation that could be considered, but I'm guessing Thal bought it from an English seller. Another nationality clue - I think I recognize the printed logo on the third page but can't blow it up large enough to read.
Title: Re: A concerto with no name
Post by: Alan Howe on Thursday 10 April 2014, 10:46
The logo seems to read: 

   A. L. No.6
Printed in England                 

The image is that of a large galleon-type boat.                   
Title: Re: A concerto with no name
Post by: eschiss1 on Thursday 10 April 2014, 11:24
Lengnick, or somesuch?...
Title: Re: A concerto with no name
Post by: matesic on Thursday 10 April 2014, 14:51
So almost certainly English then? The style (I cheated by entering the first page into Finale Printmusic for its playback function) seems quite powerfully Rachmaninovian and makes me want to hear more! In overall appearance the ms is quite similar to one I have scans of, a cello concerto from 1908 by Percy Hilder Miles (1878-1922), but he didn't write a piano concerto. Sadly I suspect this is an unpublished and maybe even unperformed piece that no-one will ever be able to identify.

By the way, if this is from Thal's "most recent pile of old stuff", I'd be interested to learn if he (or anyone else) has picked up any manuscript music for strings or strings with piano that apparently hasn't been recorded. I'm always keen to submit these things to what you might call "extraordinary rendition".
Title: Re: A concerto with no name
Post by: thalbergmad on Thursday 10 April 2014, 15:59
I have a manuscript for banjo and piano if that helps. I was looking to do the World Premier myself though.

Thal
Title: Re: A concerto with no name
Post by: matesic on Thursday 10 April 2014, 17:42
I'm happy to leave that to your picking fingers
Title: Re: A concerto with no name
Post by: thalbergmad on Friday 11 April 2014, 23:30
http://www.mediafire.com/view/89wh2yyhd5d6h7b/Thal's_Mystery_Concerto.pdf (http://www.mediafire.com/view/89wh2yyhd5d6h7b/Thal's_Mystery_Concerto.pdf)

To aid the identification, here is the entire work, or what there is of it.

With thanks to my Mustek scanner and with kind permission of Mark Thomas.

Concertingly.

Thal
Title: Re: A concerto with no name
Post by: matesic on Saturday 12 April 2014, 08:49
After all that meticulous transcription, he just stops writing about 10 minutes into the finale! I'll see about creating a few audible samples (stop me if you've already done or are doing this!)
Title: Re: A concerto with no name
Post by: thalbergmad on Saturday 12 April 2014, 10:22
Please continue Sir. I know not how to do that.

Title: Re: A concerto with no name
Post by: BerlinExpat on Monday 14 April 2014, 11:40
My piano teacher friend reckons it's D minor and listening to the first page it sounds Rachmanovian or even Scriabinian!!! Suggestions have I plenty, solutions have I none!
Title: Re: A concerto with no name
Post by: matesic on Tuesday 15 April 2014, 14:07
Here are some short synthesised clips of each movement

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/db116k6ad81n1l2/Thals_mystery_PC.MP3
(http://www.mediafire.com/listen/db116k6ad81n1l2/Thals_mystery_PC.MP3)
To my ears, late romantic and highly chromatic (so probably before c.1920?) but with clear references to Brahms's second concerto in the "orchestral" theme of the first movement and the rhythm of the third. Could he (or she) have been a Stanford pupil?
Title: Re: A concerto with no name
Post by: thalbergmad on Tuesday 15 April 2014, 20:35
Extremely kind of you Sir. I don't know how you do this but it is much appreciated.

Regards

Thal
Title: Re: A concerto with no name
Post by: matesic on Wednesday 16 April 2014, 09:28
No big trick, once you've got your head round the note-processing software. Finale Printmusic (good for relatively simple scores) costs about £80 and its piano playback sound is quite convincing, other instruments unfortunately less so.