On the radio recently I heard 2 hours of Fench violin concertos.
Of three concertos- Viotti 22 Vieuxtemps 4 and Saint Saens 3 - only the latter (the non-violinst) was good. The weird donkey braying effect in the Vieux was particularly strange.
Pianist composers can write good concertos for everything, but violinists are pretty patchy. Is it because they can't understand harmony?
Vieuxtemps 4 is a very entertaining work. In what movement did you find the donkey-braying effect? If you want a much more effective concerto by Vieuxtemps, try the 5th. It's waay more eloquent than the 4th. As for Viotti, well, the 22nd is one of his best, but he's really more a Classical, or at least proto-Romantic, than Romantic composer.
What a weird title of this topic. VC 22 by the Italian violin virtuoso Viotti is a most wonderful work, full of beautiful, lyrical themes, an example of a late classical, early romantic concerto. VC 4 by the Belgian virtuoso Vieuxtemps is perhaps not his best concerto, but as Jim says, a very entertaining work. Indeed, his VC 5 is even better and has an unsurpassed gorgeous coda. The Frenchman Saint-Saëns, well, he wrote so many beautiful works, but he isn't an unsung composer IMHO.
Listening to these 3 VC's is nothing less than a most enjoyable pastime.
All three are enjoyable works: Viotti VC22 late-classical, Vieuxtemps VC4 a Romantic virtuoso showpiece and Saint-Saens VC3 surely one of the greats of the repertoire - a much more substantial work by a composer of the first rank.
But Glazier makes a good point. The VCs by virtuoso violinists are very often vapid display pieces with little true substance. It is frustrating that the VCs by composers of much greater substance are not being recorded - Gernsheim, Reinhold Becker, Brüll, Draeseke, etc...
Quote from: Glazier on Thursday 10 June 2010, 05:08
Pianist composers can write good concertos for everything, but violinists are pretty patchy. Is it because they can't understand harmony?
LOL, I have to remember this one if I want to p*** certain people off!
But I have to go with what Glazier said, using Alan's words: very little substance in most of these virtuoso violin concertos. I had an interesting conversation with a young cellist last sunday, who was lamenting that the important cello repertoire isn't even 10% of what the violinists can choose from, to which I replied that at least it was ALL good stuff, whereas violinists have to play c**p 90% of the time...
I love violin concertos, but I tend to listen to late romantic ones only. The Gregoriano by Respighi, the Atterberg, the Götz, oh my, I have to stop here - there's so much beautiful melodic material and original composing in so many of them, which I don't find in Rode, Vieuxtemps or even most of Spohr concertos - whose symphonies I like much, much better. I'd like to throw it on orchestration as well, but that would be utterly unfair.
Funny thing, though, that most composers found the violin (after the piano) the best solo instrument to combine with the orchestra, because of its sound and range. They might have been confusing 'best' with 'easiest'... How much more original composing there is to be found in cello concertos! I like Dohnányi's approach to all this, leaving out all violins except for the soloist in his 2nd concerto!
Back to the accused virtuoso concertos; worthwhile in my opinion is Spohr's 8th, not only because of the form. Vieuxtemps may not be half-bad, but Viotti I try to avoid at any cost, since I made the mistake once of acquiring his complete (!) violin concertos...
Hi all
The problem with the Vieuxtemps violin concerto no 4 has nothing to do wih the quality of the music, or any over-emphasis on virtuoso display, or whatever. The composer was actually moving on and trying to be a bit more 'profound' in the work and mark himself out amid his contemporaries by producing something out of the ordinary. Remember, the concerto was composed in the 1840s. We can hardly expect the composer to produce violin concertante music on the scale of a Brahms or Bruch or Reinecke or Raff or (yes) Herzogenberg, et all, in that decade. And I am not criticising music of the era of Schumann and Berlioz - just trying to maintain perspective.
That is, producing a concertante work on such a grand scale - symphonic, with four rather varied movements, whilst also keeping his virtuoso craft skills up front - was not easy for Vieuxtemps and may have been beyond his ample musical means. The order of difficulty issue for the concerto may be the real problem - it is damnably difficult to play. I have several recordings and every soloist falls short. Nay, every soloist ultimately fails. And pro violinists have told me what a horror it is to play and have demonstrated why - even worse than Joachim's Hungarian concerto, and not just because of the notorious scherzo. Heifetz came close (so the blurbs say) at breaking through the work's 'order of difficulty' issue, but he refused to go near it again. And that effort was way back in the 1930s - with a drastically reduced score which made things easier for him. The recording makes that obvious. Still a cracker, though.
This sort of issue has been been discussed ad infinitum many times in this forum and in its predecessor over the last few years. I can empathise with Alan, Glazier and Kriton. Alan hits the nail on the head in regard to the core problem - so few of the really great violin concertos of the era c1860-1900 have reached recorded form. I am truly grateful for anything I can get in the way of violin concertos composed in the 1800s - late classical (eg, Viotti, actually an 18th century composer, but whatever - he produced five in the early 1800s) to late romantic, such as Stojowski's recently recorded 1899 concerto.
The problem is that - and this is not a joke - no more than about 170 violin concertos composed between the years 1800 to 1900 have ever reached recorded form. That is obscene. Something like 6000 or more violin concertos were composed in Europe during that period. And not by 'virtuoso display' clowns or amateurs. As Alan (and others) are well aware, we are in no position to be strongly judgemental about the 19th century violin concerto as a musical form yet. I will refrain from making any provocative remarks about the possible over-supply of recorded violin concertos from other eras...
regards
Peter
,
I was going to insert what seems more and more an irrelevance about the piano (in Alfred Einstein's opinion actually more than mine, though I think he had a point) being a better foil to the orchestra than the violin anyway ("Mozart: His Character, His Work"), but I think Peter Conole hit the nail on the head very relevantly... (Someone get that nail some pain reliever, but seriously, quite right...)
Eric
I seem to have touched a nerve. Thank you all for giving enlightening opinions and relevant facts.
Personally I'm a big fan of V, especially as I'm an amateur violist who has lived in Belgium and plays on a Belgian made instrument. I've played a cassete tape of the va son in my car to destruction over 20 years. How about the Duo Brillant (v va p /orc or v vc p/orc) - has it been recorded?
Next time I hear the VC4 I'll locate the offending pasage.
Quote from: peter_conole on Thursday 10 June 2010, 14:10The order of difficulty issue for the concerto may be the real problem - it is damnably difficult to play. I have several recordings and every soloist falls short. Nay, every soloist ultimately fails. And pro violinists have told me what a horror it is to play and have demonstrated why - even worse than Joachim's Hungarian concerto, and not just because of the notorious scherzo. Heifetz came close (so the blurbs say) at breaking through the work's 'order of difficulty' issue, but he refused to go near it again. And that effort was way back in the 1930s - with a drastically reduced score which made things easier for him. The recording makes that obvious. Still a cracker, though.
I don't know about that. I have the Perlman/Martinon recording. He acquits himself pretty well, technically in the 4th, regardless about how you may feel about his interpretation. Of course, I'm not familiar with the score, so I can't tell if he's taking any shortcuts.
I'm a fan of Wieniawski 2, a fine work written by a great player for his own use. It seems to me to be the equal of Scharwenka, Rubinstein, and many other pianist-written pf concertos.
Poor Viotti (although technically not of our period), was a true pioneer in elevating the violin concerto above the drivelling level of most late 18th century concertos. The tuttis of his late concertos are big, ambitious statements and in general there is a scope and seriousness found in few concertos of his contemporaries. Not to be despised, even if the reach sometimes exceeds the grasp...
Berlioz, an exacting and articulate critic, praised Vieuxtemps 4 highly.
David
I'd like to put in a good word for Wieniawski 1, myself. Quite an accomplishment for a lad of 18, and a work of some substance (although fiendishly difficult as well).
As in any repertoire there are some bad apples which make it difficult to sit through an entire work (Not to mention painful).. but I think Max Bruch's concerted Violin works are wonderful atonements for the sins of the banal "Violin Concerto".
It could also be a matter of opinion for example (Here I apologise in advance if I 'touch a nerve') I find Brahms' Symphonies too thickly orchestrated (except the 2nd where the melodic content and pastoral atmosphere save the day!), 'I nearly got throttled by a Brahms fanatic once'. I agree ( ...Some famous critic said this-..) all the four Schumann Symphonies can be condensed to make One GREAT Schumann Symphony. Structurally I like the Glazunov symphonies better than Tchaikovsky. The Mendelssohn Piano concertos (ground breaking for their dispensing of the customary Orchestral exposition before the soloist entry ...) I find technically brilliant but lacking of the poetry of his other works the likes of the Violin concerto, Italian and Scottish Symphony, etc. Also I think Glenn Gould is HORRIBLE (He kills Bach!!!) and Marc-André Hamelin a Clinical Super Virtuoso lacking in poetry and feeling (Just on account of his Rubinstein 4th and Brahms 2nd(on Hyperion).............. just compare the latter with any of the other Great recordings)!!! There I've said it (and p****d a few people I think). I prefer the un-egoic playing of Murray Pariah, Joseph Banowetz, Brendel, Rubinstein, Hewitt. Again like I said, It's a matter of opinion.
The Vieuxtemps concertos I find a bit drab (except the beautiful 5th!!!), I rather like the concertos of Saint-Saens, Goldmark, Wieniawski (Jim, I too prefer the 1st!), Rubinstein, Glazunov, Bowen, Dayson, Barber, Joseph White, etc.
PS: I want to apologise again for the Glen Gould statement (I know some people go absolutely bananas for him!!!), but I cant help the way I feel about him after listening to Rosalind Turek and Andras Schiff!
Excuse me sir, this vehicle doesn't belong on the sidewalk:
Quote from: FBerwald on Friday 11 June 2010, 08:33
It could also be a matter of opinion for example (Here I apologise in advance if I 'touch a nerve') I find Brahms' Symphonies too thickly orchestrated (except the 2nd where the melodic content and pastoral atmosphere save the day!), 'I nearly got throttled by a Brahms fanatic once'. I agree ( ...Some famous critic said this-..) all the four Schumann Symphonies can be condensed to make One GREAT Schumann Symphony. Structurally I like the Glazunov symphonies better than Tchaikovsky. The Mendelssohn Piano concertos (ground breaking for their dispensing of the customary Orchestral exposition before the soloist entry ...) I find technically brilliant but lacking of the poetry of his other works the likes of the Violin concerto, Italian and Scottish Symphony, etc. Also I think Glenn Gould is HORRIBLE (He kills Bach!!!) and Marc-André Hamelin a Clinical Super Virtuoso lacking in poetry and feeling (Just on account of his Rubinstein 4th and Brahms 2nd(on Hyperion).............. just compare the latter with any of the other Great recordings)!!! There I've said it (and p****d a few people I think). I prefer the un-egoic playing of Murray Pariah, Joseph Banowetz, Brendel, Rubinstein, Hewitt. Again like I said, It's a matter of opinion.
!
the main road is violinist-written VCs. They'll be taking your license away soon.
And just a reminder, Glazier - you aren't the Moderator!
Anyway, the main point here is that there is a large number of unrecorded VCs by unsung composers of real substance. I'd start with Gernsheim's two VCs...
Didn't Mahler write a Huge Violin concerto?? I remember reading about it somewhere!
Quote from: FBerwald on Friday 11 June 2010, 17:08
Didn't Mahler write a Huge Violin concerto?? I remember reading about it somewhere!
Let's leave this one until next April, please!
Right, the one in F Sharp!
I do have an interesting anecdote about this. Years ago, I contacted Universal (responsible for Deutsche Grammophon) and told them about the Mahler 'release'. They called around, only to find that the web site on which it was being discussed was an Asian one. They decided - oblivious as to what kind of historical and musical importance a Mahler violin concerto might have - not to persue the matter of distributing the CD over here, writing me that it was 'probably an Asian release only'...
The people who 'run' the CD business nowadays...
Hi all
I did a recount - the number of recorded performances of violin concertos composed in the 19th Century is probably closer to 160 than 170. That is very grim indeed, because as mentioned in a previous posting, thousands were composed in that glorious, unsurpassed musical century.
Perhaps it is time to take stock. Mark and Alan may wish to offer comment on what I am about to suggest, one way or another. I suspect they will agree it will make sense to get things in proportion and perspective. On those themes, it is worth noting that after the maestro Joseph Joachim had established himself as the great violinist of the late 19th century, as many as 1000 new concertos may have have been dedicated to him alone over the next 30-40 years.
It will come as no surprise to a few forum members that I have been studying the development and history of the 19th century romantic concerto as a musical form for quite some time.
If it is deemed worthwhile, I will list all of the violin concertos composed during the critical period c1860 to 1900 which I know have been recorded one way or another. It could be a useful reality check - we have HUGE reasons to rage about the musical vandalism of the last 100 years. If folk could add some missing works, it would be wonderful.
Here is a heretical comment: yes, World War II was a disaster for some German and Italian ( and in other countries?) music publishing houses and musical institutions, but I do not believe all (or even most) of the stories put about regarding the 'great fires' in response to requests for scores. Let us not underestimate the indifference, lack of interest, laziness, unwillingness to help, vandalism and sheer incompetence of some musically ignorant employees and even some public archivists and librarians. Believe me, I know what I am talking about because of bitter local experience in a country that was not bombed.
regards
Peter
Hello!
I just read your discussion about recordings of violin concertos composed between 1800 and 1900 which are recorded. My website only covers the years from 1894-1900, but I received other recordings as well over the years which are not listed on my website. Maybe that is of interest for anyone, so I made a list of recordings I own (I did not list the common ones).
To whom it may concern:
Accolay: VC 1
Arensky: VC
Aulin: VC1, VC2
A.Becker: Concert piece
Berwald: VC
Cui: Suite concertante
A. Dietrich: VC
H. Ernst: VC
Fabritius: VC
E. Franck: VC1, VC2
Godard: VC1, VC2
Goetz: VC
Goldmark: VC1
E. Hartmann: VC
Joachim: VC2, VC3
Lehar: VCtino
H. Leonard: VC4
Lvov: VC
Mackenzie: VC
Monasterio: VC
Moszkowski: VC
Pacius: VC
Pott: VC
Raff: VC1, VC2
Rubinstein: VC
Svendsen: VC
J. White: VC
and some other works for V+O named other than VC.
I hope that is at least of some interest for anyone.
Best,
Tobias
Let's not forget that because of the relation of the violin to the orchestra, it's a damned sight more difficult to write a competent violin concerto than one for piano. The piano has the advantage of a natural distinction in tone with the orchestra, so you can pretty much do what you like. With the violin, it's very difficult to keep the soloists lines separate from the orchestra because the orchestra is chock full of other violins. There are devices (varying tempi, or alternating the soloist and the string sections), but these can lead to frustrating results. In my experience, there are some very good concertos for violin and a devastating amount of mediocre ones. Lack of composing skill easily kills your violin concerto, whereas the piano concerto is inherently more tolerant.
The list of uninspired VCs composed by violinists is indeed disheartening. Too often we must sit through long stretches of sawing and orchestral humming, just to get from one cadenza to another. The thought of sitting through any Viotti concerto again was rather unpleasant. And Rode did not do much for me.
I could add more to the list. For example, thinking of this thread, I listened to the Berwald VC last night, because even though I had listened to it in the past, I really could not remember what it was like. And I like a lot of Berwald's music. Now, the next day, I can say the same thing. It leaves no impression at all.
However, there were a few other violinists who wrote violin concertos worth hearing -- at least for me. When I'm in the mood, for example, I enjoy pulling out recordings of concertos written by Wieniawski or Hubay.
What is equally interesting to me is some violinists who were good composers, but who never wrote a violin concerto. For example, to my knowledge, Josef Suk never wrote a violin concerto or even any extended work for violin and orchestra. Yet his Asrael Symphony and Serenade for Strings showed him to be quite a capable composer.
I ran across a violinist/composer who I had not previously heard of, and have heard nothing by. Can someone tell me about Jan Kubelik, father of the great conductor, who was apparently quite the virtuoso violinist and wrote 6 violin concertos and cadenzas for the concertos of Brahms and Beethoven? How could I have never heard of this man?
Actually, Josef Suk did write a virtual VC - the 24-minute long Fantasy in G minor, Op.24 of 1902-3. It is a magnificent work - try the sample here...
http://www.amazon.com/Dvorak-Suk-Music-Violin-Antonin/dp/B00000DLUQ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1276297263&sr=1-2 (http://www.amazon.com/Dvorak-Suk-Music-Violin-Antonin/dp/B00000DLUQ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1276297263&sr=1-2)
Quote from: FBerwald on Friday 11 June 2010, 08:33As in any repertoire there are some bad apples which make it difficult to sit through an entire work (Not to mention painful).. but I think Max Bruch's concerted Violin works are wonderful atonements for the sins of the banal "Violin Concerto".
A heartfelt second to this opinion. I finally picked up a new 3rd VC (the Chandos with Hickox conducting and Mordkovitch fiddling). It was hard to decide which version to get, but I didn't have a Bruch S1, so I decided to get that pairing. I now have all 3 Bruch concertos again. I may have some doubts about Lydia Mordkovitch's ability to keep up with the work's formidable demands (my old lost LP with Accardo was much more technically assured), but, as has been mentioned before (I believe by Alan) the stature of this work as repertory-worthy is beyond question. I also think the 1st Symphony is one of the finest "1sts" in the symphonic field. But I can't find that old thread...
Quote from: JimL on Thursday 10 June 2010, 06:33
Vieuxtemps 4 is a very entertaining work. In what movement did you find the donkey-braying effect?
On another listening I found the offending passage. Unfortunately there isn't a score in IMSLP. There are four movements
1 Recitative
2 Slow
3 Quick
4 March
The passage in question is in no 3. The movt consists of an initial tune sounding like a mordent study. Then there is a musette type passage then the quick tune again.
The braying bit is at the end of the quick part both times, on the way down from a very high note.
The recording is perfect in every way - Perelman and Barenboim with the Paris Orch.
The slow movt is wonderful. I won't throw my scratchy cassette recording away.
Quote from: JimL on Saturday 12 June 2010, 00:40
A heartfelt second to this opinion. I finally picked up a new 3rd VC (the Chandos with Hickox conducting and Mordkovitch fiddling). It was hard to decide which version to get, but I didn't have a Bruch S1, so I decided to get that pairing. I now have all 3 Bruch concertos again. I may have some doubts about Lydia Mordkovitch's ability to keep up with the work's formidable demands (my old lost LP with Accardo was much more technically assured), but, as has been mentioned before (I believe by Alan) the stature of this work as repertory-worthy is beyond question. I also think the 1st Symphony is one of the finest "1sts" in the symphonic field. But I can't find that old thread...
Dear JimL,
I also believe that the definitive Bruch is the Salvatore Accardo with Kurt Masur (My fav after Neeme Jarvi) and
Gewandhausorchester Leipzig - It has all the Three Violin concertos plus the four movement serenade and Scottish Fantasy. The Complete Bruch Symphonies (also Kurt Masur and Gewandhausorchester Leipzig and Salvadoe Accardo) has the rest of Bruchs Violin concerted pieces namely the Romance in a minor Op.42 (intended as the Ist movement of a Violin Concerto that he lost interest after writing this movement!), Adagio Appasionato Op. 57 (Sure to bring tears to your eyes), In Memorium Op.65 and Konzertstück in F sharp minor Op. 84. There is also Romance for Viola and Orchestra in F major (a very sadly neglected piece!!!).
Quote from: Amphissa on Friday 11 June 2010, 21:47
.... thinking of this thread, I listened to the Berwald VC last night, because even though I had listened to it in the past, I really could not remember what it was like. And I like a lot of Berwald's music. Now, the next day, I can say the same thing. It leaves no impression at all...
I think the problem with the Berwald Violin concerto is that it lacks the earnestness of the Symphonies and the Quirky Piano concerto but nevertheless the concerto is quite musical and quite laid back.
I've only heard the Bruch Konzertstuck once or twice. IMHO he should have composed a finale for it, maybe transposed the slow movement and called it his 4th VC. It's among his finest works, but I think its unusual form works against it. Konzertstucke get neglected an awful lot nowadays.
Berwald's VC is, of course, an immature work, written ca. 1821. Hardly typical. It's a shame he didn't write another after, say, 1840.
The Accardo/Masur Bruch sets are excellent value, although you can do just as well or better elsewhere. Certainly Conlon's symphonies on EMI, very cheap these days, have more spine than Masur's, and there are one or two other very fine performances of VC3 around - e.g. Janicke/Stenz on EBS and Fedotov/Yablonsky on Naxos. Nevertheless, for a comprehensive overview of Bruch, the two Philips doubles are hard to beat overall.
Perlman in Vieuxtemps is certainly an example of superb fiddling - in the Heifetz class, and no cuts! The recording of the orchestra, however, is now starting to sound rather elderly. I shall be interested to read the reviews of the new Hyperion CD...
Quote from: Glazier on Saturday 12 June 2010, 09:26
Quote from: JimL on Thursday 10 June 2010, 06:33
Vieuxtemps 4 is a very entertaining work. In what movement did you find the donkey-braying effect?
On another listening I found the offending passage. Unfortunately there isn't a score in IMSLP. There are four movements
1 Recitative
2 Slow
3 Quick
4 March
The passage in question is in no 3. The movt consists of an initial tune sounding like a mordent study. Then there is a musette type passage then the quick tune again.
The braying bit is at the end of the quick part both times, on the way down from a very high note.
The recording is perfect in every way - Perelman and Barenboim with the Paris Orch.
The slow movt is wonderful. I won't throw my scratchy cassette recording away.
I think you mean Martinon, not Barenboim, unless he recorded it twice with the same orchestra and different conductors. I know the spot you're talking about now. It's right after that high trill. The violin has a grace-noted chromatic descent from the trill that does sound a little like a donkey. I think it's a deliberate effect on the part of Vieuxtemps, since the trio section has a sort of pastoral feel to it. I think he had some sort of rustic festival in mind when he composed it, complete with farm animals providing commentary!
Perlman is definitely partnered by Barenboim in Vieuxtemps (on EMI). Martinon is the conductor for Perlman in the other pieces on the same CD.
Easy to check, Jim...
Quote from: Alan Howe on Saturday 12 June 2010, 16:26The Accardo/Masur Bruch sets are excellent value, although you can do just as well or better elsewhere. Certainly Conlon's symphonies on EMI, very cheap these days, have more spine than Masur's, and there are one or two other very fine performances of VC3 around - e.g. Janicke/Stenz on EBS and Fedotov/Yablonsky on Naxos. Nevertheless, for a comprehensive overview of Bruch, the two Philips doubles are hard to beat overall.
I'm happy enough with Mordkovitch and Hickox, although, as I commented in a PM, either Mordkovitch has intonation problems or she plays with just intonation like Joachim did. And the tempo fluctuations in the 'largamente' passages of the first movement of Bruch VC 3 make me wonder if she was having trouble with all those abundant multiple stops. However, it could just have easily been an interpretive decision for dramatic effect. It's a pretty good performance anyway. Wonder where I'll be able to pick up a Bruch 2nd and 3rd symphony without duplicating what I have? Come to think of it, I also need a Scottish Fantasy...
Quote from: Alan Howe on Saturday 12 June 2010, 16:54
Perlman is definitely partnered by Barenboim in Vieuxtemps (on EMI). Martinon is the conductor for Perlman in the other pieces on the same CD.
Easy to check, Jim...
Quite right. And I did, thanks. I was just looking at the bottom, not under the concertos. I should have remembered, since I had that LP in my collection way back when!
Time-wasting posters? ;)
Oh, like we run out of room, or something? ;D
Let's just get the facts right before we put someone else right...
Anyway, getting back to the topic, or more or less tangential to it: there is a passage almost exactly like the one being discussed (the 'donkey-bray' effect) right before the end of the solo part in the first movement of Vieuxtemp's CC 2.
On the topic, if it's still relevant, does anybody have strong (or any) feelings about the de Beriot concertos? Many are rather thin, but I have a soft spot for nos. 2 and 7 (the latter being one of the first concertos to get an extended, if abridged, recording -- by Maud Powell). I accompanied both of them in my youth, and no 7 I played with a student at IU who brought it in to Josef Gingold, who was thrilled to hear someone doing it. I always thought that one quite melodically charming and rather deftly made.