Unsung Composers

The Music => Recordings & Broadcasts => Topic started by: Mark Thomas on Wednesday 24 December 2014, 06:24

Title: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: Mark Thomas on Wednesday 24 December 2014, 06:24
Here's news (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/theodore-dubois-musique-sacree-et-symphonique-musique-de-chambre/hnum/6681619) of an exciting 3 CD release due out next February containing two symphonies, two substantial chamber works, a mass and motets by Theodore Dubois. Each Editiones Singulares release so far has boasted very high production values, so this promises to be an absolute treat.
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: Alan Howe on Wednesday 24 December 2014, 07:40
Straight on the New Year shopping list! Marvellous!
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: eschiss1 on Wednesday 24 December 2014, 23:29
Ah neat. The Fleisher Collection has a Symphonie française by Dubois (published by Heugel in 1908), a symphonic poem Adonis, and 2nd and 3rd symphonies besides (also published by Heugel, in 1913 and 1923) - among other works, which I incline to think probably haven't been performed in ages.  I've known of these works but nothing about them (I can interloan from the Free Library main Music Library Catalog (and maybe their Chamber Music collection- they have his Nonetto, ©1926, in both, and some other items in one and/or the item... hrm... but not the symphonies...) but anyhow, not the Fleisher Collection- and didn't know, anyhow, that I could borrow from the former until recently anyway)... anyways -- interested -thanks!
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: Alan Howe on Thursday 25 December 2014, 01:18
There's a YouTube introduction (in French) to the Symphonie Française here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kspQw-rvvKo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kspQw-rvvKo)
Très wagnérienne!
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: Mark Thomas on Thursday 25 December 2014, 07:51
Oui, absolument!
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: Aramiarz on Thursday 25 December 2014, 22:14
Excellent news. The 3rd symphony was dedicated in memoriam of Camille Saint-Saens, I tryed of get them (symphonies), some years ago, but had problems of rights and bad quality material in the 3rd case. Maybe the situation is other now. Adonis is one wonderful symphonic in three parts. There is one recordings, maybe released 15 years ago by one Canadian label. Too the cd contain music by   Campagne Claude (or Champagne?). I will revise the cd for details of label, etc
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: Alan Howe on Wednesday 04 February 2015, 18:45
This is a must-buy for admirers of late romantic music in general and Dubois in particular. The 31-minute 2nd Symphony in B minor (1912) begins for all the world like Night on Bare Mountain, but soon establishes itself in the meaty tradition of Franck, Dukas and Chausson - with Wagner always featuring in the background somewhere. Often Elgar doesn't seem very far off either. It's all rather grand, sonorous and affecting. OK, it could have been written twenty years before - but who cares? It's all about the music. In any case, the majority of composers pre-WW1 weren't radicals, modernists or iconoclasts - they were like Dubois, i.e. plying the trade that they knew, And remember: Dubois (1837-1924) was of the generation of Brahms, Tchaikovsky and Dvorak, so what would one expect?

More anon...
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: eschiss1 on Wednesday 04 February 2015, 21:23
Some of his music is already available on CD, I think, and a reasonable amount in score has made its way digitized online (not the symphonies, whose published Heugel scores seem to be rare things?) - what I've seen looks worth hearing, for what that's worth...

(Théodore not to be confused with Pierre Max Dubois, of course.)
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: Mark Thomas on Wednesday 04 February 2015, 22:39
Thank for the headline on the 2nd Symphony, Alan, but I'm disappointed that this set isn't available yet for download from qobuz.com. I shall have to exercise all that patience I haven't got!
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: Alan Howe on Wednesday 04 February 2015, 22:49
..a bit like spending all that money I haven't got...
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: Aramiarz on Thursday 05 February 2015, 05:06
Adonis was released in canadien label Analekta, is wonderful piece, exquisite And refinated!
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: BerlinExpat on Thursday 05 February 2015, 16:28
The set must be selling like crazy. Mine's just arrived and it's no. 2328 of the numbered edition of 2500!
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: Alan Howe on Thursday 05 February 2015, 22:12
...unless they started at 2500 and are working backwards. Mine is 2404 and it arrived two days ago.
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: BerlinExpat on Friday 06 February 2015, 08:46
I guess not, Alan. My copy was held back by CPO while they waited for the delivery of Recife's Cecilia!
I've noticed that the number of limited editions vary. With Gouvy it was 3000!
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: Gareth Vaughan on Friday 06 February 2015, 11:04
I should think it highly unlikely that this set is selling out fast. It takes a long time to sell 2,500 copies of music by a relative unknown, even worldwide. Much more likely the sets are being sent out at random.
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: Alan Howe on Friday 06 February 2015, 17:00
I'm with Gareth on this.
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: Alan Howe on Friday 06 February 2015, 23:08
OK, back to the music. And I'm going to stick my neck out and contend that by far - in fact by a country mile - the best music in the set is the 39-minute Symphonie française in F minor of 1908. In fact, I'd say it's major work of the order of say, the Dukas or Chausson symphonies. Like the latter in particular, it is certainly indebted to Wagner and Franck is a looming presence, yet ultimately this is some of the most personal music I have heard by Dubois. It sounds as though he put his whole heart and soul into the piece. The contrast between light and shade is one of the work's particular fascinations - compare, for example the gloom-laden opening of the first movement with the calm, ethereal writing at the end of the slow movement. Wonderful. Then we have a third movement which begins as light as a feather before turning more stormy and mysterious with hints of Franck here and there. An unbuttoned finale then bursts upon us, the music soon becoming less certain before blossoming into an extended lyrical episode. The work ends in triumph. 

Oh, and by the way: it's superbly done by Les Siècles under François-Xavier Roth.
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: eschiss1 on Friday 06 February 2015, 23:13
That is tempting...
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: chill319 on Monday 09 February 2015, 01:13
Quote...the majority of composers pre-WW1 weren't radicals, modernists or iconoclasts - they were like Dubois, i.e. plying the trade that they knew...

Indeed, but to my taste the sea-tide of stylistic change that transpired, in particular, during the decade before the Great War brought out the best in Dubois, and for that reason the appearance of later works such as his second symphony is especially exciting to me.
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: Mark Thomas on Saturday 21 February 2015, 09:51
This set is still not available for download from qobuz.com. It's most frustrating.
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: Alan Howe on Friday 22 May 2015, 23:43
Just wondering whether anyone has any thoughts on this set - the symphonies in particular?
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: adriano on Saturday 23 May 2015, 07:34
My only momentary thought on this: Why does Palazzetto use such unusual/impossible formats for their products? Their (excellent) texts could also be issued in normal CD booklet dimensions. It's like those "complete" Karajan and Bernstein 30-inches boxed editions containing no LPs but CDs...
And, what is more important: the Palazzetto CDs are just slipped in their book's inside covers in a quite risky way. Both CDs of my copy of Saint-Saens' "Les Barabares" were totally scratched...
Some CD companies have strange ideas about packaging. I am sure many of you also hate those cardboard CD covers in bookform (don't remember how they are called) which get so easily damaged during shipping. Melodiya are now fixed on this format. The plastic CD holders get broken very often and cannot be replaced, since they are glued on the cover - and not awailable in shops A damaged jewel box of a "normal" CD can easily be replaced.
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: Alan Howe on Saturday 23 May 2015, 08:51
I quite agree. Getting the (3) CDs out of the Dubois book is a major logistical exercise involving detailed planning!

Any opinions of the symphonies?
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: adriano on Saturday 23 May 2015, 09:29
After my unpleasant experience with the Saint-Saens, I am still hesitating to buy this item, Alan...  >:(
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: Mark Thomas on Saturday 23 May 2015, 11:55
I've only just obtained these works and am looking forward to hearing the symphonies over the holiday weekend. Then I'll post my thoughts, Alan.
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: Alan Howe on Saturday 23 May 2015, 12:18
I do thoroughly recommend the symphonies. They are vigorous, wonderfully orchestrated and memorable. Old-fashioned for their date? Yes. But it's 2015, so who cares? And Dubois was born in 1837, so to come to the symphony at 70+ was quite a feat!
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: jerfilm on Saturday 23 May 2015, 12:44
I'd love to hear them, but if someone doesn't issue the set as a download, I probably never will......

J
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: Gareth Vaughan on Saturday 23 May 2015, 12:47
Can't see it on Qobuz yet. Am I missing something?
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: jerfilm on Saturday 23 May 2015, 12:56
Even if it were, Qobuz is "not available" here in the colonies......   (and the one place I could use my ancient French.....)

J
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: Mark Thomas on Saturday 23 May 2015, 16:03
No Gareth, it doesn't seem to be available as a download anywhere yet. Previous sets from Palazzetto Bru Zane have always been downloadable almost as soon as the CD sets were advertised, but not this time. An unwelcome development...
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: Alan Howe on Saturday 23 May 2015, 17:40
The set is worth buying on CD, though. The book is a mine of information and the music's splendid. Still, I quite understand why downloaders are somewhat miffed...
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: BerlinExpat on Saturday 23 May 2015, 21:44
The essays in the book are superior to many standard CD inserts and I wouldn't be without them. Because the book format doesn't fit my CD shelving I copied the two symphonies to a single CD which I then couldn't stop playing and wondered why such wonderful music has been denied us for so long.
The gorgeous piano quartet led me to search for more of Dubois' chamber music and I found three CDs on the Canadian ATMA Classique label (also available as a download) and all three have become favourite late evening listening. There are 17 works in total ranging in length from about 30 mins for the piano quintet and piano quartet down to nearly 2 mins for the Canon pour violon et violoncelle avec accompagnement de piano. I would recommend going for all six CDs.
Palazzetto Bru Zane are sponsoring Lalo's Le Jacquerie (completed by Arthur Coquard) at this year's Radio France music festival in Montpellier. The single concert performance is on July 24th at 20:00 and will probably, as in the past, be broadcast live. Véronique Gens and Charles Castronovo are among the soloists.
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: Alan Howe on Saturday 23 May 2015, 23:37
I agree about the Atma CDs - splendid, all of them. Funnily enough, I've done the same with the Dubois symphonies. They'd make a marvellous single CD, wouldn't they?

Thanks for the info about the Lalo. Any idea what sort of opera it is?
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: eschiss1 on Sunday 24 May 2015, 07:45
Opera in 4 acts begun by Lalo, completed after his death by Coquard; some material available @ IMSLP...
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: Alan Howe on Sunday 24 May 2015, 09:25
Off-topic, briefly: is the Lalo a tragedy or comedy or....?
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: Mark Thomas on Sunday 24 May 2015, 10:08
I'm not going to duplicate Alan's movement-by-movement description (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,5381.msg57515.html#msg57515) of Dubois' First Symphony, but I'm very happy to agree with his view that this a really fine piece of work by the 71 year old Dubois, it's vigour and inventiveness never betraying for a second his (by the standards of the time) advancing years. His melodic material and orchestral colouring are first rate throughout and Dubois' use of light and shade, constantly varying the mood of the work, is quite masterful. It is recognisably a fin de siècle French symphony, with the same echoes of Franck and Wagner that one hears in other French symphonies of the same era, but there is none of the heaviness which sometimes besets them. This work is often feather-light in its textures, and it's in those passages where Dubois' orchestration is especially beguiling and inventive. The contrasting blazing brass-led climaxes have strong whiffs of Elgar, as do the several nobilimente-like passages for the strings in the first and third movements especially. That said, Dubois is entirely his own man, and overall there is an individuality to the Symphony, which has a grandness and a nobility which is entirely appropriate for Dubois' tribute to his homeland. It's not really a French equivalent of Elgar's own First Symphony, but that's the nearest which I can get to characterising the piece. This really is a major work which is genuinely repertory-worthy.

The Second Symphony now beckons...
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: adriano on Sunday 24 May 2015, 11:26
"La Jacquerie" is an adaptation of Mérimées play of the same title.
It's the writer of the novel "Carmen".
It's about a French peasant's revolt in France in 1358
See here (https://books.google.ch/books?id=bjmyqnLCUkQC&pg=PA120&lpg=PA120&dq=lao+la+jacquerie&source=bl&ots=lm9_uKYHD-&sig=P9lW7Lmgekh3qUcZqZAgFiaVaYI&hl=de&sa=X&ei=F6ZhVciiFsK2UfHkgegL&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=lao%20la%20jacquerie&f=false):

Must read it before knowing if it's tragic or comic :-) In my library I only have Mérimées complete novels and tales...
But, according to the IMSLP vocal score, the protagonist is being killed and dies in the arms of his mother, so it must be tragic.
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: Alan Howe on Sunday 24 May 2015, 14:26
Thanks, Adriano. Hastens back to topic...
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: Alan Howe on Sunday 24 May 2015, 18:19
Just a thought: I often think that an important part of Elgar is what he seems to have learned from Richard Strauss in terms of orchestral richness and swagger. It's this, for example, which is entirely missing from Dubois' music, magnificent though it is (especially in the Symphonie française).
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: eschiss1 on Sunday 24 May 2015, 18:51
That makes me curious whether Dubois knew any of Magnard's earlier orchestral music, and one way or the other whether his symphonies sound anything like Albéric's (as often said, but it's true and no insult) "austere" muse (maybe not so much "anything" as in detail...)
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: Mark Thomas on Sunday 24 May 2015, 18:55
Yes, I agree Alan, no swagger, nothing imperial about the First Symphony. It was the brass writing which reminded me of Elgar and in comparing Dubois' Symphony with Elgar's I didn't mean to imply any similarity of atmosphere apart from a certain nobility, and to suggest a parity of stature. I certainly wouldn't describe Dubois' First as austere, Eric.
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: Alan Howe on Sunday 24 May 2015, 20:12
No, Dubois' music doesn't resemble Magnard's at all. It's music of the Saint-Saëns generation: the influences are primarily Wagner and Franck, but there is a delicious clarity and variety about the orchestration. As Mark says, there is also a robustness about the brass writing and a certain nobility which remind one of Elgar. All in all, music whose neglect is quite incomprehensible.
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: Mark Thomas on Monday 25 May 2015, 10:05
The Second Symphony is, on the whole, a more relaxed and sunny affair than its predecessor. Think of the contrast between Brahms' First and Second Symphonies. It's also a few minutes shorter at just over the half hour duration. The first movement begins with a startling reminiscence of Mussorgsky's Night on a Bare Mountain, but there's little that's dark about this punchy, positive music which has plenty of momentum and contrast. The short slow movement is broadly melodic and builds to an impressive conclusion before dying away. It is not as contrasted in its material as its counterpart in the Symphonie Française, but still provides an effective counterweight to the positive atmosphere created by the opening Allegro. The even shorter Allegretto which follows is an easy going, untroubled creation, slightly bucolic in its atmosphere. A busy brass-led opening for the finale sets the scene for this upbeat conclusion to the Symphony, in which Dubois returns to the atmosphere of the first movement, complete with a couple of fleeting recollections of its material. There's a beautifully judged contrasting quiet passage in the middle of the movement, before the celebratory mood returns. The performance, by different forces from those employed in the other symphony, is absolutely first rate - enthusiastic and committed.

All in all, this is another fine piece of work from Dubois although not, I think, quite up to the Symphonie Française's very high standard. The first two movements are particularly impressive, but I did feel that the work tailed off just a little and that the melodic material in the final three movements wasn't quite on a par with that in the first, or throughout the First Symphony. In all other respects, though, this is very much a worthy companion to that magnificent creation, showing Dubois' powers of invention and fantasy undimmed at 75. I see that there's a Third Symphony too...
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: Alan Howe on Monday 25 May 2015, 13:07
QuoteI see that there's a Third Symphony too...

Yes, I saw that too. Here are some details (in French - sorry!):

TITRE : Troisième Symphonie
INSTRUMENTS : flûtes, hautbois, clarinettes en sib, clarinettes basse en sib, bassons, sarrussophone ou contrebasson, cors en fa, trompettes en ut, trombones, 3ème trombone, 4ème trombone ou tuba, timbales, violons, altos, violoncelles, contrebasses
DATE DE PUBLICATION : 1923
DÉDICACE : à la mémoire de mon ami C. Saint-Saëns
LIEU D'EDITION : Paris
EDITEUR : Heugel
http://www.theodoredubois.com/catalogue#anchor14 (http://www.theodoredubois.com/catalogue#anchor14)

Score available for hire:

DUBOIS Th. (1837-1924)
SYMPHONIE N° 3
2 2 3* 3** – 4 2 3 1 – Timbales, cordes.
*Dont 1 clarinette basse – **dont 1 contrebasson
Partition et Matériel en location.
http://www.alphonseleduc.com/EN/orchestre_recherche_oeuvres.php?&orchestre_categorie=&soli_instru=&compositeur=DUBOIS+Th.&titre=&editeur=HE&valider=valider&page=2 (http://www.alphonseleduc.com/EN/orchestre_recherche_oeuvres.php?&orchestre_categorie=&soli_instru=&compositeur=DUBOIS+Th.&titre=&editeur=HE&valider=valider&page=2)

So, it could be done! (And how about a symphony composed by an 86 year-old!)
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: Gareth Vaughan on Monday 25 May 2015, 13:30
Fleisher has scores and parts for all the Dubois symphonies, as Eric mentioned earlier in this thread.
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: eschiss1 on Monday 25 May 2015, 14:11
OTOH Fleisher has scores & parts available for everything ever written (I vastly exaggerate; I rather wish they did ;^) ) and I doubt Heugel (Heugel-Leduc?) has been pushing the Dubois symphonies very hard, unfortunately. (Do they even list them as available at their website? Will have to check that...) (My point, if not clear, is that music not much known and not much pushed is almost always not much played.)
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: Alan Howe on Monday 25 May 2015, 14:33
Great to know that! Thanks!
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: Gareth Vaughan on Monday 25 May 2015, 16:38
I'm pretty darned sure Heugel will have done nothing to advance the cause of Dubois. That would be typical,  I fear, of many music publishers.
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: Alan Howe on Monday 25 May 2015, 17:07
It was the details the website supplied that interested me...
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: eschiss1 on Monday 25 May 2015, 17:29
I agree, it seems to be fairly Universal of Editions. 
Anycase, I hope to hear his symphonies sometime soon.

BTW, the score and parts of the Symphonie Française made their way to a concert(...s) in New York City (November 1917) and the NY Philharmonic Archives...

http://archives.nyphil.org/index.php/artifact/fcc95e34-8697-4c91-bc18-01f3a0741d89 (http://archives.nyphil.org/index.php/artifact/fcc95e34-8697-4c91-bc18-01f3a0741d89)

(score has a copyright 1908, plate H&Cie 23,947)
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: chill319 on Wednesday 10 June 2015, 20:31
Perhaps this is Eric's doing: the score and parts of the Symphonie francaise were uploaded to IMSLP on 4 Jone. Thanks to whomever.
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: eschiss1 on Wednesday 10 June 2015, 21:24
Not directly my doing, but/and I agree with the sentiment. :)
(4 Jone is no relation to Hildegard Jone, btw, or to Webern.)
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: jdperdrix on Friday 12 June 2015, 12:53
I just received my copy of the book and 3 CD's. I'd ordered them directly from Ediciones Singulares in Spain where it was listed at 29.9 euros, including handling and postage (34.84 pounds on Amazon UK and 37 euros on Amazon France). I got it in 2 weeks. I was a bit worried because they never acknowledged receipt of my order!

Interesting book. I still have to listen to the CD's! I immediately removed the CD's to put them in appropriate boxes!
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: Aramiarz on Wednesday 09 December 2015, 03:10
In last years research with Fleisher collection about the 3rd Symphony dedicated to Saint-Saëns, the problem is that the score isn't in good condition for loan...... :'(
Title: Re: Dubois: Symphonies, chamber and sacred music
Post by: Tapiola on Tuesday 14 May 2019, 00:12
I'm listening to the 2nd Symphony (stunning, btw!), which, according to the recording, is in B minor, but it doesn't sound in that key that much, but rather in D minor/D major. Was it a deliberate mistake? Was it a typing mistake?