Recommendations, please!!
Which symphonies would forum members recommend in the 'Late Classical' category - i.e. symphonies in the style of/moving beyond late Mozart and Haydn?
I'm thinking of Eberl. Clementi's symphonies sound late classical to me as well.
Weber (not unsung composer, but the symphonies aren't recorded often), Krommer, and Gossec are good starts.
Joachim Eggert is my choice!!
Woelfl, Wolfl, Woffl, Woeffl, or however it is spelt.
Thal
There are also Johann Wilms, and C.E.F. Weyse
This is something of a speciality of mine.
You really, really MUST hear the symphonies of Mozart's exact contemporary Joseph Martin Kraus (1756-92). He wrote a dozen or so symphonies which are recorded, some of which are startlingly original (including a 'Symphonie funebre' and one in C-sharp minor(!)). The Naxos set is well worth having to get to know these pieces for very little monetry outlay. Kraus was isolated in Stockholm in the same way Haydn was isolated in Eszterháza and developed an original and innovative musical voice.
Franz Krommer (František Kramář) (1759-1831) was a also a composer of some wonderful symphonies. One of the most original voices of the late Classical period was Antonín Reijcha (Anton Reicha)(1770-1836). Large-scale symphonies with fascinating melodic lines and unexpected twists of harmony, this composer is well worth looking out. Like Beethoven, he was starting to push the boundaries quite hard.
The German-Dutch composer Johann Wilhelm Wilms (1772-1847) wrote some very Beethovenian symphonies (especially No 7) and these are well worth hearing.
Finally, I would direct you towards the 'Bohemian Schubert', Jan Václav Voříšek (1791-1825). He died young and wasn't prolific in the way Mozart and Schubert were. But he left one gorgeous symphony in D major and a wealth of superb piano music. Also composer of a lovely single symphony was the Spanish Juan Crisóstomo Arriaga (1806-1826), who died 10 days short of his 20th birthday, yet still managed to leave behind some fantastic music. Cherubini also left one symphony, which is worth investigating.
All these pieces are recorded (the Voříšek and Arriaga several times). ENJOY!
Dear contributors,
Please may I have chapter and verse? I know all the names, but it's the works themselves I sometimes don't know. Recommended recordings would also be helpful.
So: Symphony No.....by..(composer)..in..(key)..(+ date); plus recommendation, please!
Quote from: Delicious Manager on Friday 02 July 2010, 15:03
This is something of a speciality of mine.
You really, really MUST hear the symphonies of Mozart's exact contemporary Joseph Martin Kraus (1756-92). He wrote a dozen or so symphonies which are recorded, some of which are startlingly original (including a 'Symphonie funebre' and one in C-sharp minor(!)). The Naxos set is well worth having to get to know these pieces for very little monetry outlay. Kraus was isolated in Stockholm in the same way Haydn was isolated in Eszterháza and developed an original and innovative musical voice.
Franz Krommer (František Kramář) (1759-1831) was a also a composer of some wonderful symphonies. One of the most original voices of the late Classical period was Antonín Reijcha (Anton Reicha)(1770-1836). Large-scale symphonies with fascinating melodic lines and unexpected twists of harmony, this composer is well worth looking out. Like Beethoven, he was starting to push the boundaries quite hard.
The German-Dutch composer Johann Wilhelm Wilms (1772-1847) wrote some very Beethovenian symphonies (especially No 7) and these are well worth hearing.
Finally, I would direct you towards the 'Bohemian Schubert', Jan Václav Voříšek (1791-1825). He died young and wasn't prolific in the way Mozart and Schubert were. But he left one gorgeous symphony in D major and a wealth of superb piano music. Also composer of a lovely single symphony was the Spanish Juan Crisóstomo Arriaga (1806-1826), who died 10 days short of his 20th birthday, yet still managed to leave behind some fantastic music. Cherubini also left one symphony, which is worth investigating.
All these pieces are recorded (the Voříšek and Arriaga several times). ENJOY!
Actually, most of Krommer's 8 extant numbered (and a few un-numbered) symphonies are unrecorded (and would probably be considered early Romantic rather than late Classical, I think, as would Kalliwoda's - which are recorded, but mostly on LP.)
Ferdinand Ries', at least, have been recorded - they're pretty good, especially nos. 4 and 6, I think. (On cpo.)
To find all of Wilms' surviving symphonies you'll have to traverse several labels, some very rare. I recommend symphony no. 5 in D myself, though. (Or, listen to Concertzender's audio archives. That'll get you most of them. :) They did a Wilms series some years back that you can find with a search engine.)
I have various by Krommer, Reicha, Wilms, Vorisek, Arriaga, Cherubini, Clementi, Kalliwoda, Ries, Weyse, Weber and Eggert - and also Vranicky, Gerson, Kunzen, Méhul, Witt and Eybler.
Kraus I will order.
Where should I start exactly with Gossec, Wölfl or Eberl?
Quote from: Alan Howe on Friday 02 July 2010, 17:44
I have various by Krommer, Reicha, Wilms, Vorisek, Arriaga, Cherubini, Clementi, Kalliwoda, Ries, Weyse, Weber and Eggert - and also Vranicky, Gerson, Kunzen, Méhul, Witt and Eybler.
Kraus I will order.
Where should I start exactly with Gossec, Wölfl or Eberl?
I only know of two symphonies recorded by Wölfl. I haven't heard them yet. Of his other music, the piano sonatas and cello sonata that I've heard are good. (The cello sonata is a sort of trio, if you include the snare-drum(?) part played by the cellist in the finale, if I remember correctly from the live performance I heard, performed by Bylsma and Bilson...)
I would also recommend the symphonies of Francois-Joseph Gossec in the very fine recording on Chandos by Matthias Bamert. There are some others recorded on ASV with Sanderling conducting, also quite fine. (While not on topic, I'd also recommend his magnificent Requiem of 1760. While there are several recordings I'm particularly fond of the Devos on Erato)
Quote from: Alan Howe on Friday 02 July 2010, 15:27
Please may I have chapter and verse? I know all the names, but it's the works themselves I sometimes don't know. Recommended recordings would also be helpful.
So: Symphony No.....by..(composer)..in..(key)..(+ date); plus recommendation, please!
OK, here goes:
Kraus Symphonies (Vol 1):- Symphony in E flat, C major and C minor (+ 'Olympie' Overture - splendid). Naxos 8.553734
Vol 2 Naxos 8.554472
Vol 3 Naxos 8.554777
Vol 4 Naxos 8.555305
Krommer Symphonies No 2 in D Op 40 and No 4 in C minor Op 102. Chandos CHAN 9275
Wilms Symphonies 6 & 7. Deutsche Grammophon Arkiv DG 474 5082.
Wilms Symphonies Opp 14; 23; 52 & 58. Challenge 72147
Arriaga & Voříšek Symphonies. Hyperion CDA66800
Rejcha Symphonies in C minor and F major. Valois (I don't have the catalogue No, sorry)
Rejcha Symphonies in D major and F major. Panton 81 1027-2
Rejcha Symphony in E-flat Op 41; Voříšek Symphony in D; Koželuh Symphony in D. Accord ACD 148-2
And how could I have forgotten Samuel Wesley (1766-1837) (the 'English Mozart') before? Wonderful stuff.
2 x Symphonies in D; in A, E-flat and B-flat. Chandos CHAN 9823
Spohr's first symphony of 1811 was very much in the late classical mould as of course was Beethoven's. Cipriani Potter wrote somewhere around 14 symphonies in that style. Nos 8 & 10 were issued on a Unicorn- Kanchana CD over 20 years ago. No 7 in F is currently available on a Classico label CD coupled with the G minor symphony of his pupil, Sterndale Bennett. However, its rather difficult to define when the classical period ends and the romantic one starts, as they seem to fade imperceptibly one into the other.
I would say that Potter's symphonies are more early Romantic, as are Weber's. I consider them all to be in about the style of Mendelssohn's 1st Symphony (the one in C minor).
What I've heard of Carlos Baguer's (1768-1808) symphonies (there are recordings on Chandos and another label or two) are rather good also. (While not all late Classical, Bamert's series- I agree with one reviewer that it would have been more accurately named contemporaries of Haydn, as his influence is generally felt more than Mozart's, which doesn't surprise me - has been good so far as I've heard it. A real standout has been a symphony in F by Mozart's alleged rival Leopold Kozeluch, in parts very Haydnesque but also a very strong work, especially in the first movement. It would, I think, be good to have some more of Cannabich's very many symphonies- but I think I veer much too much off-topic. Sorry! )
Eric
I vote for Wilms.
Symphonies 6 (op. 58, d minor) and 7 (c minor).
Stunning music, with no doubt.
IMHO is worth of some Beethoven's exploits.
The 3 symphonies from Friedrich Ernst Fesca (1789-1826), opp. 6, 10 & 13, performed by the NDR Radiophilharmonie under Beermann (2 cpo CD's) are definitely late classical works. Pleasant music, but I'm not getting excited. I think those by Eberl show more individuality (Concerto Köln under Ehrhardt).
Quote from: Peter1953 on Tuesday 06 July 2010, 07:41
The 3 symphonies from Friedrich Ernst Fesca (1789-1826), opp. 6, 10 & 13, performed by the NDR Radiophilharmonie under Beermann (2 cpo CD's) are definitely late classical works. Pleasant music, but I'm not getting excited. I think those by Eberl show more individuality (Concerto Köln under Ehrhardt).
The scherzo of the 2nd Fesca symphony is sometimes played separately on a Belgian station (Klara.be) whose classical program (Continuo) contains more movements than completed works (but, I will say in its favor, interestingly chosen movements.) It does seem a fine and vital piece (the station webcasts). I haven't heard the rest of the three symphonies yet, though... maybe that's the best of!
It all depends on what we mean by "late Classical". I would say that the Krauss symphonies I have recordings of, including the celebrated Funeral Symphony, sound to me more like Haydn in his Sturm und Drang middle period. One English composer who could write symphonies both in the "Old" style and "Modern" style characteristic of Haydn's "London" symphonies was John Marsh (1752-!828). Haydn's pupil Pleyel and Josef Elsner(1769-1854),both appear to have copied Haydn's late style, but why bother with imitations when you can get the real thing from FJH himself?! ;D
By the way, some of his kid brother Michael's later symphonies are also well worth a listen. In fact his good friend and colleague, Mozart wrote a slow introduction for one of them and for many years it was counted as Mozart's 37th symphony! :)
try the three piano concertos by Woelfl on the label cpo - lots of echoes of Mozart; Eberl's symphonies op.33 and op.34 are a must on Teldec
Quote from: John H White on Friday 09 July 2010, 17:12
It all depends on what we mean by "late Classical". I would say that the Krauss symphonies I have recordings of, including the celebrated Funeral Symphony, sound to me more like Haydn in his Sturm und Drang middle period. One English composer who could write symphonies both in the "Old" style and "Modern" style characteristic of Haydn's "London" symphonies was John Marsh (1752-!828). Haydn's pupil Pleyel and Josef Elsner(1769-1854),both appear to have copied Haydn's late style, but why bother with imitations when you can get the real thing from FJH himself?! ;D
By the way, some of his kid brother Michael's later symphonies are also well worth a listen. In fact his good friend and colleague, Mozart wrote a slow introduction for one of them and for many years it was counted as Mozart's 37th symphony! :)
I've often wondered, since they found that it isn't Mozart's 37th Symphony but Michael Haydn's 26th, why they don't renumber Mozart's Symphony #22a, (the one in A minor) as his 37th.
Quote from: JimL on Saturday 17 July 2010, 15:39
I've often wondered, since they found that it isn't Mozart's 37th Symphony but Michael Haydn's 26th, why they don't renumber Mozart's Symphony #22a, (the one in A minor) as his 37th.
[/quote]
Eh, well it's not the only one of the 'main' 41 that's not by Mozart -- 2 and 3 aren't either, and one or two others as well IIRC.
Quote from: TerraEpon on Saturday 17 July 2010, 20:59
Quote from: JimL on Saturday 17 July 2010, 15:39
I've often wondered, since they found that it isn't Mozart's 37th Symphony but Michael Haydn's 26th, why they don't renumber Mozart's Symphony #22a, (the one in A minor) as his 37th.
Eh, well it's not the only one of the 'main' 41 that's not by Mozart -- 2 and 3 aren't either, and one or two others as well IIRC.
And the A minor one ("Odense") - is there very recent news? I thought that was considered of doubtful authenticity now.
Eric
We may be talking about the same symphony. I always thought that that was one that Mozart had entered into his thematic catalogue, but the MS had never been found. When it was found the symphony was considered to be unquestionably authentic, since it matched one that Mozart had already catalogued.
P.S. Upon further research I find that the 'Odense' Symphony may be the same work, but the authenticity of the catalogue entry is in doubt, since Mozart's original catalogue was lost. Also, the symphony now appears to be numbered 16a. This doesn't make any sense to me. I recall reading the article when the symphony was discovered, and I've heard a broadcast of the symphony on the radio and it was referred to as "No. 22a".
Quote from: JimL on Sunday 18 July 2010, 02:47
We may be talking about the same symphony. I always thought that that was one that Mozart had entered into his thematic catalogue, but the MS had never been found. When it was found the symphony was considered to be unquestionably authentic, since it matched one that Mozart had already catalogued.
P.S. Upon further research I find that the 'Odense' Symphony may be the same work, but the authenticity of the catalogue entry is in doubt, since Mozart's original catalogue was lost. Also, the symphony now appears to be numbered 16a. This doesn't make any sense to me. I recall reading the article when the symphony was discovered, and I've heard a broadcast of the symphony on the radio and it was referred to as "No. 22a".
It's usually described as Köchel 16a. It might be described as _symphony_ 22a for some odd reason.
I'd be surprised if it was in Mozart's personal thematic catalog, which begins with K.449 I believe (and includes the only evidence of some works that do not survive otherwise, I think- just marches and thelike, but still). Did Mozart also keep a catalog of his earlier works? (Also, I think the manuscript copy of that later catalog does survive- the British Library? Museum? had it viewable online in digitized microform during the Mozart year a few years ago :) )
Eric
16a doesn't have a number on my list (which isn't perfect, granted). It's also noted "Lost; Doubtful copy found" so at the moment it's though to not be by Mozart.
And I was wrong, it's only 2, 3, and 37. There are a bunch of other spurious ones in the catalog, though the only ones in the original K1 catalog are Symphony in F, K 98 and a symphonic Finale in D, K 291 (that one's also by M Haydn)
The most informative article on the subject can be found here (http://www.answers.com/topic/symphony-in-a-major-odense-k-anh-220-k-16a).
I wondered why Mozart's 2nd and 3rd symphonies seemed inferior to his No1 in E flat until I read somewhere that, in that case, the 8 year old child prodigy had copied out one of C F Abel's symphonies as an exercise prior to producing similar works of his own.
I haven't been keeping up, John. Does this mean the story is unfounded about Wolfgang attempting to boost his father's spirits during Leopold's London illness by producing a composition of the type Leopold was rather good at writing?
Chandos has a wonderful, new 5 CD budget box set containing reissues of Symphonies in their 'Contemporaries of Mozart' series at a very low price. The contents are simply wonderful. Included are 15 Symphonies by Kozeluch, Krommer, Pleyel, Carl Stamitz and Vranicky.
Matthias Bamert conducts The London Mozart Players. The catalogue number is: Chandos 10628.
I am eagerly awaiting this set. Has anyone in the Unsung Composers Forum heard any of these Symphonies? They were first issued by Chandos at full price in the 1990's and early 2000's? :)
Quote from: Gerontius on Thursday 29 July 2010, 17:05
Chandos has a wonderful, new 5 CD budget box set containing reissues of Symphonies in their 'Contemporaries of Mozart' series at a very low price. The contents are simply wonderful. Included are 15 Symphonies by Kozeluch, Krommer, Pleyel, Carl Stamitz and Vranicky.
Matthias Bamert conducts The London Mozart Players. The catalogue number is: Chandos 10628.
I am eagerly awaiting this set. Has anyone in the Unsung Composers Forum heard any of these Symphonies? They were first issued by Chandos at full price in the 1990's and early 2000's? :)
I've heard some of them. I liked the Kozeluch symphony in F especially when I heard it broadcast- I think I could (almost?) have supposed the first movement for part of a lost Haydn middle-period symphony. Character and invention, in my opinion.
Eric
I have the krommer disc and enjoy it a lot....but I'm a fan of Krommer in general.
I have every single CD of that series that has been released. I consider it the greatest such series ever released! The sound quality is exceptional, the performances tend to sound like the orchestra is enthusiastic for the music (always a big plus), and a lot of the music is, in my opinion, truly Great with a capital G.
Not to mention, the Clementi "Big #1" Symphony gets its best-ever recording in this series. It blows away the two other versions I've heard, the competition's not even close.
I note that the 3 symphonies of Friedrich Ernst Fesca were mentioned in this thread. I have two of the three symphonies (nos 2 + 3) and found them very pleasant, similar in style to Mozart but not as good. As a change of pace to Mozart, Fesca is a good alternative.
Dennis
Quote from: Delicious Manager on Friday 02 July 2010, 15:03You really, really MUST hear the symphonies of Mozart's exact contemporary Joseph Martin Kraus (1756-92). He wrote a dozen or so symphonies which are recorded, some of which are startlingly original (including a 'Symphonie funebre' and one in C-sharp minor(!)).
I have some of these discs, and the Symphonie funebre, written for the funeral of of the assassinated Gustav III, is an amazing work. According to the notes "The third movement is simply the accompaniment to the main chorale Lätt oss then kropp begrafven ('Let us bury this body') which was sung by the audience. " Does that make it a choral symphony? Naxos did not record the words.
The Symphony in C sharp minor on the same disc is what would now be called a Chamber Symphony. These two symphonies are both in four movements.
The Sinfonia buffa on disc 2 is "a miniature pantomime, with an opening movement that moves swiftly between contrasting scenes, from sudden outbursts of melodramatic emotion to melodies that trail off into unsettling silence."
Sadly, it seems that more of his works have been lost than survive, so those on the Naxos discs are just a fraction of his total output.