Hello all,
I'm new in this forum and open this topic since I'm interested in discovering music new to me. I am a big fan of obscure symphonies with strong melodies, interesting harmonies and astounding orchestration (I especially like extensive use of percussion); sounding like film music, but being formally more complex than film music.
So I'm interested in your opinion, what are your favourite symphonies sounding like a score for a film, but are examples for mastery of the musical form.
Here are IMO 'cinematic' symphonies, I like very much:
Atterberg 1-9 (esp. 3,5,6,7):
For me the greatest cycle of Symphonies in the 20th century. Maybe not so much innovation, but throughout perfection.
Bendix 1,3:
A little conservative, but innovative in form and with strong orchestration and very memorable melodies.
Korngold:
One of the greatest symphonies of the 20th century (especially the inner movements). Although complex and partly very dissonant, it gives a very satisfying listening experience.
Enescu 1-5, Study Symphonies 1-4 (I have not heard the 2nd and 3rd yet, but expect them to be of same kind):
One of the great symphonists, but today neglected. The study symphonies are the work of a teenager, but are very good orchestrated already and throughout full of memorable material. The three symphonies with Opus number are more advanced. But although partly very complex (2nd Symphony) they are very accessible, or sound like a score to an imaginary film (1st Symphony).
Braga-Santos 1-4:
For me Braga-Santos was a great discovery. The hymn at the end of the 4th Symphony is the most effective ending of a symphony i've ever heard. All Symphonies 1-4 contain memorable material, have an interesting rhythmical drive and are innovative in their use of orchestra.
Copland 3:
Copland has very unique orchestral tone and the music of the 3rd symphony is full of beautiful melodies embedded in interesting dissonances.
Klami 1,2:
Another major discovery for me. These to epic Symphonies are something like a Nordic Shostakovich and belong to my favourites.
Mahler 1,2:
I'm still not totally stuck into the world of Mahler. I really like his orchestration (maybe the greatest master of orchestra sound of all time), but his musical content often bores me, so the only to symphonies by Mahler i frequently listen to are the 1st and 2nd.
Magnard 4:
Magnard was a great discovery for me too. His sound is not really comparable with any other composer I know. I like all 4 symphonies of him very much especially for their medieval tone, but I think only the 4th is 'cinematic'.
Martinu 1-6 (esp. 1,4):
One of the great symphonists of the 20th century and in his unique style non-competitive. His orchestration especially the prominent role of the piano create very interesting atmosphere. IMO he is especially a master of the scherzo.
Nielsen 2,3,4:
First I was not a big fan of Nielsen, but now i got into his music. I still does not like his 5th and 6th, but especially the 3rd and 4th (the timpani duel is one of the greatest moments of his symphonic writing).
Rachmaninoff 1-3:
Of course one of the greatest late romantic composers, but his symphonies are often underrated. I think he wrote the greatest Russian symphonies beside Shostakovich.
Peterson-Berger 1-5 (esp. 3):
One of the three Swedish late romantic symphonists of the 1st generation (beside Alfven and Stenhammar). Of all three I like his symphonies most, being more accessible and Nordic than Alfven and more innovative than Stenhammar.
Rangström 1-4 (esp. 2):
Beside Atterberg IMO the 2nd symphony by Rangström is the greatest Swedish symphony. I think his other symphonies are of much lower quality but still interesting.
Hurum:
If you don't know it you should buy this disk. The by French impressionism influenced Norwegian composer created a masterpiece in his symphony. Very good orchestration and a lot of memorable themes.
Halvorsen 1-3 (esp 2,3):
I think Halvorsen wrote the symphonies Grieg didn't. Partly very conservative but throughout with rich orchestration and strong melodies.
Shostakovich 5,7,8,11,12:
Of course one of the greatest Symphonists of all time. I like the listed symphonies most and think that especially 5, 11 and 12 are scores to imaginary films.
Respighi 'Sinfonia drammatica', 'Suite Sinfonia'
Karlowicz 'Rebirth Symphony'
A great work, which is deeply romantic. Although it is very long-breathed in some parts I like it, especially the epic conclusion and the slow movement.
It would be very interesting to read, which comparable symphonies do you know and what are in your opinion the greatest (unheard) 20th century symphonies, sounding like film music.
Welcome to Unsung Composers!
Firstly, might I ask you, please, to re-read our remit as to what is acceptable for discussion here:
http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,3681.0.html (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,3681.0.html)
This means that Copland, Martinu and Shostakovich don't belong here, I'm afraid.
Secondly, the majority of the works you list cannot really be described as 'cinematic' in any meaningful sense. I can see why certain very late-romantic symphonies might attract that label on account of the heavy, lush orchestration that they share with film composers such as Rozsa, Newman, Steiner, etc. - indeed Korngold fits in both categories. Thus, there might some justification for naming, say, Atterberg, Rangström, Braga Santos or Respighi, but not the others.
"wrote the symphonies Grieg didn't"-
I trust you're aware Grieg did write a symphony, just that he shelved it. It's been resurrected and recorded a number of times, though.
One of Myaskovsky's earlier symphonies (no.3 of 1914) concludes with a (depressing and also noble) funeral march I've sometimes thought would serve _very_ admirably in an appropriately-paced (more Tarkovsky-ish than Hollywood-ish- one with an appropriate sense of scale rather than HURRY) film.
(And as to Korngold, I think he did reuse material from some of his earlier, non-cinematic works- including his early Sinfonietta in B?- in his later films, and vice-versa... other composers too, I shouldn't doubt and even seem to recall, just as Prokofiev used operatic and ballet music that wasn't getting staged in -his- symphonies (including no.3, which I am very fond of), etc.)
Yes I know Griegs Symphony. But it is a rather early piece ( I think he was 20 or so when he wrote it) and I think that Halvorsen is a musical successor of Grieg.
I'm afraid this topic really won't go anywhere unless there we can agree on a working definition of 'cinematic' - after all, almost anything goes in terms of musical styles employed by film composers today.
I'm assuming, therefore, that what is meant is symphonies written broadly in the style of earlier composers for the cinema such as those I mentioned before, i.e. Rozsa, Newman and Steiner, whose music is a development of the late-romantic tradition of Wagner, Richard Strauss, etc.
Yes I have to be more specific in what i mean by 'cinematic'.
For me it means, that the Symphony has a rich orchestration and strong thematic material and is melody driven. So yes i manly thought of film music developed from late-romantic tradition. Examples of up-to-date film music i had in mind, were something like Shores 'Lord of the Rings' or the more romantic scores of John Williams (like Jurassic Park).
OK, that's fine. Let's see what other contributors have to say...
I am happy to say I've heard all the symphonies you mention, but only a very few seem to me to be in any real sense 'cinematic' (Korngold, Respighi, Shostakovich 11 and 12). Also, I find Hurum occasionally brings to mind Sibelius more than anything French.
Sorry, I don't 'get' it.
Can I suggest firstly that 'cinematic' should probably refer only to works written in the c.20th and c.21st that specifically employ 'cinematic' sounds. Visit any virtual instrument supplier and you will find that textures and effects such as 'cinematic horns' are quite specific.
Secondly, works that may happen to be programmatic or dramatic in character, cannot be regarded as 'for the cinema' unless they were written specifically for that purpose. I guess Mahler might have been a bit upset to hear someone suggesting that the Symphony 5 Adagietta is 'cinematic'!
The most cinematic symphony of them all: Bloch's Symphony in C sharp minor. The Dalia Atlas/LSO recording is terrific.
The only definition that'll fit here at UC is the one I suggested, i.e. symphonies written broadly in the style of earlier composers for the cinema such as those I mentioned before, i.e. Rozsa, Newman and Steiner, whose music is a development of the late-romantic tradition of Wagner, Richard Strauss, etc.
Let's stick with this, please.
Why? Let's open it up, broaden it beyond; it's gotten stuffy in here.
Fine. But please respect the remit of this website. If it's too stuffy around here, there are other online forums which might suit you better...
the Bloch certainly already falls within our remit (1903), if not in this subject then for independent discussion (which- I'd need to check- it's probably already had.) (Well, "certainly" is a word I overuse; I do not claim to understand the supposedly "clear" remit. I would ask about it, but as it is beyond discussion, I no longer do.)
The Bloch is clearly a candidate...
Listening to Bloch and watchig Ben Hur is completely compatible.
Thal
Surprised that the Gliere 3rd hasn't been mentioned. I've often thought that it would make a compelling soundtrack to some Russian Folk tale based film. But even on its own, the epic scale of the score is thrilling.
Absolutely! Spot-on!
What about Alfven's 4th?
If I might make some suggestions:
- Bernhard Zweer's Third Symphony, and particularly the second half of the third movement, always struck me as very cinematic.
- The Finale to Kees Dopper's Seventh Symphony. In fact, I once used this as music for a film about the Dutch Afsluitdijk (the dyke connecting Holland to Friesland, completed in 1933) I made as a student. But it is intended as an anti-war protest and listening to the final march, you can understand why.
- Charles Tournemire's Fifth Symphony, particularly the middle movement - a fantastic evocation of the countryside.
- Gerhard Schjelderup's Brand. Of course, it is intended as dramatic music, and I defy anyone to listen to it without somehow seeing a story unfold before their mind's eye.
Hausegger's Nature Symphony is an obvious entry here.
...as is Marx's Herbstsymphonie.
Marx; really? It contains modernisms clearly associated with Schreker, a composer who remains out of bounds here. This is a different kind of romanticism, one that bears foreign and modern influences. So maybe things are loosening up here naturally.
Well, I have used bits and pieces of Marx's works for several home videos. And I thought they worked quite effectively.
Jerry
QuoteIt contains modernisms clearly associated with Schreker, a composer who remains out of bounds here. This is a different kind of romanticism, one that bears foreign and modern influences. So maybe things are loosening up here naturally.
Well, Marx's Herbstsymphonie is clearly a late-romantic work - and it has been discussed many times here.
And Schreker's not out of bounds here either - the discussion was never about his gorgeous orchestration, but rather the lack of melodic interest which characterises his vocal writing.
Any more suggestions as to possible 'cinematic' symphonies?
I don't think Marx' over-saturated orchestration would make for very good film music, to be honest; it simply takes up too much attention to allow for any other story-telling.
Which leads to the question of what is 'cinematic'. The general consensus here appears to be that it means 'monumental' or 'epic' rather than anything else. To me, that seems rather narrow; I would suggest that 'evocativeness' is a better criterium. An example: the finale of Ludolf Nielsen's Symphony of Joy (No. 2) is not epic at all, but it is very succesful (for me, at least) in conjuring up images. A piece such as Schubert's C Major quintet falls in the same category (and has been used in many film scores).
Good point well made, Ilja. Thanks.
I would suggest the "Sinfonia sopra una canzone d'Amore" by Nino Rota.
Despite the year of composition (1947) the work is openly tonal and unashamedly romantic.
Immediately after the composition the composer used one movement (with amendments, and for piano and orch.) in the movie "The Legend of The Mountain Glass" (there is a Naxos recording with Philip Fowke).
Several years later Rota reworked some material for the (much more famous) movie "The Leopard".
The "Sinfonia" complete exists on a Chandos CD; it may be heard on You Tube in a version by the disappered label "Nuova Era".
Is Bax unsung enough? Surely he's post-Romantic enough, and though some of the tone-poems are still around when was the last time a symphony was on a concert programme?
I have to say that for me the Korngold, while it may be "cinematic" enough, isn't "symphonic" enough - when I played it I found it structurally unsatisfying. I have the same problem with the Violin Concerto. But I accept that is probably my problem rather than his...
QuoteAny more suggestions as to possible 'cinematic' symphonies?
Sorry I missed out on most of the discussion because this is something that I do know a little about. I had a website at one time called Golden Scores but it died for lack of interest.
I think that the key composer who fits into the mold is Korngold who wrote wonderful scores for Warner Brothers in the 30's and 40's such as Robin Hood, Sea Hawk, and Devotion which all use material from his classical works. He stole from himself as you would say. He continued the style of Wagner and Strauss and having fresh ideas expanded upon them. He is a prime example and fits on this forum although in recent years he has become quite popular and is no longer unsung in my opinion.
Miklos Rozsa used his violin concerto as the soundtrack for the film The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes. Vaughn Williams Sinfonia Antarctica appears in the British film Scott of the Antarctic. Philip Sainton's work The Island was the basis for the score to Moby Dick. Others that could be included are The Red Pony (Copland) and The Devil and Daniel Webster (Herrmann).
Tom
And Korngold is particularly relevant here given the movie Deception (... I knew about the cello concerto from it but now I've read a bit of the context/a bit of a plot summary, with a cellist, a composer, etc. in a love triangle I really do want to see this film :D :) )
Have you seen the Wilder picture The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes? This is the Rozsa Violin Concerto.
I gather(?) that Korngold's cello concerto is played more or less as such (by the cellist character?) in Deception (in a score composed -by- Korngold in 1946, not compiled in 1970 posthumously as "The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes" was) making it almost literally a cinematic concerto. (Like the Warsaw Concerto, then, but by a composer not only known for such things...) (Yes, not a cinematic symphony, I know, I know- for lack of, well- being a symphony. But I hope that bit of generalization does not lose the essence of the topic too much...)
Korngold wrote a concerto around seven minutes for the film. This was later expanded to the 13 minute Op. 37 Cello Concerto. AFAIK the former has only ever been recorded on the complete score recording on Naxos -- others are all the later 'concert' version.
Ahem, gentlemen. Back to symphonies, please.
Ok well continuing on the Korngold front, he not only wrote a large symphony, but an even more romantic Sinfonietta which though early is still in his signature style.
Rozsa also wrote a symphony, which was early as well, but shows some hallmark of his later style.
What would you all think if we started a site on this very material? I would be willing to put it together. Do you think there is enough interest?
Tom
Interesting; I find the Korngold to be a model of classic symphonic form; everything is where it should be, and all buoyed by an inexhaustible imagination capable of pouring new wine into the figurative old bottle of Haydn's symphonic structure.
Another great example: Dohnanyi's Symphony No.2, which I believe is one of the greatest symphonies from a century blessed by a plethora of timeless works in that form.
http://www.andrew-pearce.com/cinemasymphony (http://www.andrew-pearce.com/cinemasymphony)
Andrew Pearce has written a symphony about this very topic. I've talked to him, enjoyed his symphony very much, and can share his despair that he can't get it performed, something we all know about.
Tom
If it's only symphonies you're asking about, then here are some starters:
Karlowicz - symphony in E minor(his only), 2nd movement
Hanson - first two symphonies
...but if Symphonic Poems are considered...:
Novak - In the Tatras(this piece will surely give you everything you're looking for -- I think it's all encompassing) and also De Profundis for violence and despair.
Sibelius - Lemminkainen in Tuonela(from the Lemminkainen Suite)
Kullervo Symphony(Kullervo's Youth - 2nd movement)
Lekeu --- Ophelie from Deuxieme Etude Symphonique(and possibly the Hamlet movement as well)
Atterberg -- almost everything, including his symphonies
Nikolai Tcherepnin - The Distant Princess
Choir and Orchestra:
Kodaly -- Missa Brevis(the choral and orchestral version)
Taneyev -- John of Damascus
While reading their bios just now -- I noticed how many of them are November/December births. Interesting, yet probably means nothing.
Most of the above are in minor keys.
If you enjoy some of the above -- I'll gladly send more.
Incidentally, , Novaks Autumn and May symphonies can be heard on youtube.
Parts of the second symphony of Hanson was used in the film Alien to the chagrin of the film composer Goldsmith.
Well, it's (obviously) not just in Europe (West and East) (including England and Russia with that) that "film composer" and "concert composer" overlap; one reads that Alex North, who was commissioned to write music for the film 2001 that was never used (some works by obscure composers like Strauss, Ligeti and others were used instead, one gathers, and the film was in consequence quickly forgotten), took the music he'd written for the film and put it in one of his own (North's) symphonies (his 3rd, from what I read)...
(Not to mention, say, Copland, ...)
If anyone ever uses a part of Hanson's 2nd symphony other than the famous melody of the 2nd movement in a film (I used to work food-service at Interlochen NMC and one did hear a lot of that theme at concerts there, of course) I'll be surprised. The composer himself reuses it at least once, probably a few times, in other works (though composers - artists in general - will do that sort of thing; I can think of several other examples and not just Mahler and Shostakovich, either...)
Undoubtedly the champion contender in this category is the Cinema Symphony by Andrew Pearce (b.Durham, England in 1975) which was mentioned earlier in the thread. My copy has finally turned up in the post and really there's no need for further discussion as the work was clearly designed to be a proper symphony dressed in the garb of John Williams-style Hollywood film music. The fact that the music is so magnificent - imaginative and wonderfully scored throughout its 52-minute length - renders all other possible contenders also-rans. I'd encourage all fans of film music to get hold of the piece: clearly conductor José Serebrier had a wail of a time with the Royal Scottish National Orchestra when the recording was made back in 2007.
There are also two welcome fillers - but more of them some other time.
Thanks for the resounding recommendation, Alan. It's downloading as I type!
I know that Andrew would love to see the work performed. I tried to get the Minnesota to perform it and they politely laughed at me.
Well at least they were polite, Tom.
Joaquin Rodgrigo
Symphonic Poem -- Per la flor del Lliri blau(For the Flower of the Blue Lily)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZY6tWfN1Mc0
With respect: that's not a symphony!
No, it isn't. I asked the question in my first post if the OP would also want other symphonic works.
I'll wait for a response before continuing with other suggestions.
Let's stick to symphonies, please, otherwise the thread's about any old music that sounds like film music.
I'm sorry that Andrew didn't post as I told him about it and he read the comments, quite flattered with Alan. He has moved on and writes material that doesn't require $40,000 to perform. Again we get back to all about money, very sad.
Tom
I'm listening to the Pearce right now on Spotify and it doesn't sound like anything romantic - late or otherwise. Am I missing something?
Jerry
With the greatest of respect: you're missing something... ;)
I'd say that it's as romantic as the later Mahler symphonies: spiky and dissonant in places, but basically melodic and tonal. Pearce is certainly a master of orchestration, making the work very atmospheric, but his melodic material tends to be rather short-winded and commonplace. Given the cinematic idiom, one does yearn for a big John Williams tune but, that said, it's an impressive work and I enjoyed it.
Yes, the one thing the symphony lacks is a great tune. But I can forgive Mr Pearce for this as the piece is clearly a proper thought-through symphony as opposed to a series of film themes stitched together into a glorified suite.
http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.559017 (http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.559017)
Grofe wrote a hollywoood suite which depicts Hollywood in a different way. You can get this release for under $10.00.
Tom
A few random thoughts on a fun subject.
The artists at Disney showed in two "Fantasia" movies that, given enough visual imagination, the right music from virtually any period of history can be rendered genuinely cinematic. (Whether it _should_ be so rendered is another matter.) Perhaps the most intricately interwoven collaboration of animation and music I know was achieved when animator Don Bluth and composer James Horner collaborated on a film called "The Land before Time" that is essentially a multi-movement late-romantic symphony.
But such collaborations are rare. In most films, including those scored by Korngold, music is used especially for its power to define scenes, or set pieces, not to create large structures. Not surprising since film music surely started in the silent era as an extension of incidental music for stage plays. Speaking of Grieg ( ;) ), whatever one might say in favor of his early symphony, as a work by a talented Leipzig graduate it is surely far too busy ringing the changes expected of a mid-nineteenth-century symphony to sound as cinematic as, say, the soaring, long-lined "Morning" or the demonic "Hall of the Mountain King" from Peer Gynt -- set pieces borrowed more than once for cinema.
Opera, particularly Wagner, is an obvious second model; ballet an obvious third. During the period that Korngold was importing the sweeping soundscapes of Strauss into cinema set pieces, his fellow countryman Hollander was perfecting another kind of film music as comic, often balletic, commentary on screen shenanigans, different in tone but not intent from various passages in, say, Siegfried. This, of course, is not what is meant by 'cinematic' here, any more than is Copland's Red Pony score (though perhaps the first brooding 20 minutes of Herrmann's score to Psycho might be).
Overall, I have to agree with those who would say that while whatever is symphonic in a symphony can be combined with whatever is sweepingly 'cinematic' in scores for set-pieces, that linkage is entirely arbitrary.
And speaking of Glière ( ;) ), I can't hear the opening of his Symphony 2 without seeing a team of galloping horses pulling a sleigh across frozen wastes. And speaking of Stravinsky (ever so briefly), he confessed to Craft in his old age that his own putatively abstract Symphony in 3 Movements was written to a cinematic scenario.
I didn't know that. I understand he was approached by Hollywood but it never worked out.
Herrmann wrote a 20 minute or so "Concerto Macabre" for the film "Hangover Square". Any thoughts on this?
Tom