I am wondering what is the most disliked piece of romantic music, something that one would rush to turn off or realy grates.
Secondly what is the worst performance of a piece of romantic music you have heard?
I would suggest this topic only runs for August, and then we can return to more positive matters.
Good topic!!! I assume we're talking about classical music and not popular/film which I have more than a few. The first theme that came to my mind was the burro/donkey theme in the Grand Canyon Suite. That theme especially in America has been used ad infinitum.
Thomas :)
I lovede that as a teenager,especially the Telarc cd,which came a bit later,with the real thunder claps & the warning about possible damage to your eqipment. Oh,and the real Arizona crickets.........
The name "the most disliked" is a tall order, because it makes sense that if it's so disliked, how would many people know about it? Nonetheless....
Among orchestral players I associate with, there is one work that causes almost everyone to groan when it's programmed: the Franck symphony. Audiences may like it (although it seems to be less favored than it once was), conductors may revel in it, but the orchestra parts aren't all that rewarding to play.
For worst performance, there are so many to choose from, but the Marco Polo recording of the Furtwangler Piano Concerto is certainly a contender.
I personally am sick to death of Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition, solely because in recent years it has been played far too frequently on Radio 3. There was one period of 7 days last year in which it was played 3 times - the orchestral version by Rimsky-Korsakov twice and the piano version once. Don't get me wrong - it's a good piece, but I don't want to hear it that often!! Once a year will do.
Quote from: Gareth Vaughan on Friday 30 July 2010, 17:46
I personally am sick to death of Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition, solely because in recent years it has been played far too frequently on Radio 3. There was one period of 7 days last year in which it was played 3 times - the orchestral version by Rimsky-Korsakov twice and the piano version once. Don't get me wrong - it's a good piece, but I don't want to hear it that often!! Once a year will do.
BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!! Finally someone had the guts to say it!
I absolutely agree!
More or less anything sung by Russell Watson.
Quote from: Gareth Vaughan on Friday 30 July 2010, 17:46
I personally am sick to death of Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition, solely because in recent years it has been played far too frequently on Radio 3. There was one period of 7 days last year in which it was played 3 times - the orchestral version by Rimsky-Korsakov twice and the piano version once. Don't get me wrong - it's a good piece, but I don't want to hear it that often!! Once a year will do.
You mean Ravel, I assume.
What you need to do is listen to the other orchestrations. Stokowski, Wood, Funtek, Leonardi, Ashkenazi....amoung others.
(Personally I try and obtain everything orchestration and arrangement I can get my hands on...)
I hate to admit it,but I much prefer Stokowski's orchestration of 'Pictures'. It's more fun!
(And the ELP & Tomita versions,in that order! Haven't heard them for years,mind!)
I do mean Ravel - quite right. And I would be quite happy to listen to some of the other versions - one of my favourites is that done by Sir Henry Wood. But Radio 3 only ever plays the Ravel orchestration!!
But, seriously, even with multiple orchestrations, the attraction of the actual melodic material wears thin when it is played so very often. It's not a work of genius, in which one finds something new and inspiring almost every time it is played. It's just a good piece.
I detest the Schumann piano concerto and have done for years.
I hate it on a cellular basis. I blow my nose on its pages and dance on its grave.
I mock its feeble last movement and its pathetic repeteteteats.
All recordings are horrific. It is impossible to polish a turd.
The End
Thal
PS: it is rather hot and i have had too many beers, but i am certain i will feel the same in the morning.
I found the Liszt piano sonata really tough going when I heard it on the radio many years ago and I've never bothered to give it a second hearing.
Ravel's interminable Bolero, but I could nominate half a dozen alternatives.
Elgar's Cello Concerto: I hate its umpteenth repeat of the week on ClassicFM, but then fall in love with it all over again when I actually choose to listen to it myself...
And I'm still waiting to be grabbed by Rubinstein 4 - but I just lose the will to live in trying...
Quote from: Gareth Vaughan on Friday 30 July 2010, 22:02
I do mean Ravel - quite right. And I would be quite happy to listen to some of the other versions - one of my favourites is that done by Sir Henry Wood. But Radio 3 only ever plays the Ravel orchestration!!
It's only just broadcast the Wood recently! (and let's not forget that Wood wanted to sideline his once he'd heard the Ravel anyway). I think that
Exhibitionists at the Pictures (as a certain composer calls this work) is a fine composition but at the same time a terrible piano piece and, accordingly, it needs to be presented in another guise, the best by far of the many that I've heard to date being that which Elgar Howarth arranged for the Philip Jones brass ensemble a good many years ago - highly recommended.
Best,
Alistair
For me, it's that most overplayed and overrated of violin concertos - that wretched, ever-present Bruch Violin Concerto No 1. I'm proud to say that in 30 years in the business, I've never programmed it ONCE!
I still haven't heard anything beautiful by Nielsen. I'm not going to give it another try. It's over.
Above all, I dislike medleys of classical music played with a rock backbeat.
Quote from: thalbergmad on Friday 30 July 2010, 22:16
I detest the Schumann piano concerto and have done for years.
I love the Schumann piano concerto. I hate the Grieg piano concerto. I do not care much for Grieg anyway, but his concerto... oh, that's just too horrible...
I have heard a few works I like by Offenbach and von Suppé. (I might enjoy the latter's uncharacteristic early Requiem if I heard it.) Very few.
Quote from: Peter1953 on Saturday 31 July 2010, 00:01
I still haven't heard anything beautiful by Nielsen. I'm not going to give it another try. It's over.
Please try Nielsen's 1st Symphony!
I prefer the Schumann,too. The Grieg is quite good fun,and I can't say I dislike it,but the Schumann just seems more subtle and heartfelt. In fact,I love it! The Grieg is all pyrotechnics,and it also reminds me of that,slightly overrated, Eric Morecambe sketch,which is possibly the best thing about it. Grieg's 'Peer Gynt' has the same effect. Good fun,but not something I want to return to to much. The same goes for the Bruch Concerto. Yet,I can play some of the couplings,Mendelssohn & Brahms,over & over again & never get tired of them.
I am very fond of the Grieg Piano Concerto's slow movement, but generally I think that he's a greatly overrated composer who had the happy luck of being able to write good tunes. There is little else in his output which has much originality.
Remember the old Nescafe ad? Grieg seems full of 'pop' tunes,with no real depth. 'Hall of the Mountain King' is almost laughably graphic. Elgar did the same kind of thing in his, 'the Wagon( Passes)',from his 'Nursery Suite',only much more poetically. What a difference!
Beecham manages to make Grieg more enjoyable.
In my humble opinion,Bax's 'Winter Legends' knocks spots off the Grieg!
Grieg's most original music is surely in his solo piano works, especially the Lyric Pieces. I love the PC; it's just that, for it to remain fresh, you can't listen to it very often.
Not sure if it is really "romantic" but Carmina Burana (esp O Fortuna) is near the top of my list of music I hope to never hear again.
But the music that maxes out my barf-o-meter is Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture and Marche Slave. I get dry heaves just thinking about having to listen to these overplayed monstrosities. The thought of having to listen to both in one sitting -- just slit my wrists please.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Saturday 31 July 2010, 19:42
I love the PC; it's just that, for it to remain fresh, you can't listen to it very often.
Well, the works that go by the label "good" in my book, are those compositions that sound better every time I listen to them. I didn't care much for the Grieg concerto when I first heard it, and it gets worse with every hearing. The Schumann I could enjoy everyday - no expiration date on that one! Remains as "fresh" as it was 170 years ago...
The sad thing is that I must own at least 10 recordings of that horrible Grieg concerto, because it's so often coupled with the Schumann concerto... :'(
I've held out on this topic for a while because I'm loath to 'hate' anything. Yes, Bruch VC 1 is overplayed, but I find it a wonderfully ingenious piece whose only fault is driving its successors out of the market through no fault of its own. This can be emended by more violinists insisting on playing Bruch VCs 2 & 3 or the Serenade or Konzertstuck, not just thinking they're going out on a limb by playing the Scottish Fantasy! I infinitely prefer the Schumann PC over the Grieg, but I don't fault the Grieg for that. What mystifies me is why they are so often paired in recordings, coming as they do, from two such different wellsprings of creativity. The Grieg concerto was composed as a virtuoso showpiece from the get-go, sharing its provenance with the concertos of Liszt, Scharwenka, Rubinstein et al. The Schumann work has more focus on poetic utterances, and its genius lies in how it manages to reconcile the virtuosic and expressive impulses. I guess the fact that they are similarly proportioned and structured, and the fact that they share the same key made them a natural pairing in the minds of so many record label executives back in the day. That, perhaps, and the fact that they are contrasting works that amply show off a pianist's bravura and emotive technique.
As far as having a 'worst' piece, is concerned I haven't found anything unsung that I consider really "bad". If I find something bad in music it's generally because it is so overplayed that it obscures other music. I could say that about Mahler's S 1, Dukas' Sorcerer's Apprentice, Ravel's Bolero, and any number of other works worthy of occasional performance that end up dominating the repertory. Again, through no fault of their own.
Quote from: Kriton on Sunday 01 August 2010, 01:10
Quote from: Alan Howe on Saturday 31 July 2010, 19:42
I love the PC; it's just that, for it to remain fresh, you can't listen to it very often.
Well, the works that go by the label "good" in my book, are those compositions that sound better every time I listen to them. I didn't care much for the Grieg concerto when I first heard it, and it gets worse with every hearing. The Schumann I could enjoy everyday - no expiration date on that one! Remains as "fresh" as it was 170 years ago...
The sad thing is that I must own at least 10 recordings of that horrible Grieg concerto, because it's so often coupled with the Schumann concerto... :'(
Getting better every time I hear it would describe much of Liszt for me, a composer I barely enjoyed at all because, I think, of non-musical preconceptions as to what he meant his music to mean - Alan Walker's writing (especially) having done much to clear up those misconceptions I have a much easier time listening to the music, the best of which I enjoy increasingly.
Quote from: eschiss1 on Sunday 01 August 2010, 01:47
Getting better every time I hear it would describe much of Liszt for me, a composer I barely enjoyed at all because, I think, of non-musical preconceptions as to what he meant his music to mean - Alan Walker's writing (especially) having done much to clear up those misconceptions I have a much easier time listening to the music, the best of which I enjoy increasingly.
I can agree here, at least as far as "late" Liszt is concerned: the choral works from the end of his life never cease to amaze me - in fact, they get more interesting every time I hear them.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Saturday 31 July 2010, 11:22
Quote from: Peter1953 on Saturday 31 July 2010, 00:01
I still haven't heard anything beautiful by Nielsen. I'm not going to give it another try. It's over.
Please try Nielsen's 1st Symphony!
A few months ago I bought Nielsen's complete symphonies (Danish RSO under Blomstedt). I've listened to the set a few times (except for No. 6) and can hear the development he made, but it's definitely not my music, although the slow movement in his First is quite nice. I have the idea that Nielsen cannot do anything good for me anymore (in fact I only have his symphonies and concertos), and that's not fair I suppose. But there is so much more really beautiful music written by Nielsen's contemporary fellow composers...
I agree with the assessment of Nielsen. Although he is clearly talented, it just doesn't offer enough that's emotionally rewarding enough to make me to invest too much time or money. I have the symphonies, and the first three are ok, the fourth interesting, the 5th irritating (I HATE HATE HATE that snare drum) and loath the 6th. I "get it" -- I know what he was trying to do with the sixth, but it just doesn't do anything. So I don't care for Nielsen, with one huge exception: the opera Maskarade is a wonderful, funny, delightful work that was so unexpected. Before totally giving up on Nielsen, you ought to try it!
I don't agree. Nielsen is one of the greatest symphonists - of all time.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Sunday 01 August 2010, 09:54
Nielsen is one of the greatest symphonists - of all time.
And the Espansiva one of the greatest symphonies!
I also try to avoid threads about music people hate - I usually get involved to defend composers I think deserve a better hearing from those who haven't heard enough to come to a considered opinion!
However, I'm afraid I have to say Mahler, yes, I know it's his anniversary this year and next and I have tried to like him but I'm sorry, his music just doesn't appeal to me. I'm much more looking forward to the (hoped for (by me!)) celebrations of Liszt's anniversary next year than those for Mahler.
I dislike the Grieg piano concerto too but only because it is overplayed, likewise with Ravel's Bolero.
Although I concede that there are about 15 minutes of lovely music in each, generally speaking, I detest Madama Butterfly & Turandot. I am also sick to death of a much better opera, Carmen.
I would walk miles out of my way to avoid hearing any of them again.
David
I do agree with Peter 1953 about Neilsen, I too have the Blomstedt set and one or two other recordings. I think that if he were not Danish Neilsen would be not only 'dead' but well and truly 'buried'. Fortunatly he is not played too often so I can ignore him. As the person who initiated this topic, I will hold off for a while in nominating my 'worsts'.
Quote from: mbhaub on Sunday 01 August 2010, 07:37
I agree with the assessment of Nielsen. Although he is clearly talented, it just doesn't offer enough that's emotionally rewarding enough to make me to invest too much time or money. I have the symphonies, and the first three are ok, the fourth interesting, the 5th irritating (I HATE HATE HATE that snare drum) and loath the 6th. I "get it" -- I know what he was trying to do with the sixth, but it just doesn't do anything. So I don't care for Nielsen, with one huge exception: the opera Maskarade is a wonderful, funny, delightful work that was so unexpected. Before totally giving up on Nielsen, you ought to try it!
It's interesting about the snare drum. You know about the mutilated score, yes? The first published edition, after Nielsen's death, was edited by a relative of the composer (a violinist named Telmanyi) who completely messed up Nielsen's instructions to the drummers etc. The newish Nielsen Edition gets it right, but I doubt many performances or recordings do.
How often this sort of thing happens to composers I do not even want to conjecture. Though we don't have to conjecture...
Eric
I'm not sure how far this topic is getting us. It is clear that any very well-known piece of music can be a turn-off if it is heard too often, especially in our culture where such things are broadcast ad nauseam (but are we really stupid enough to listen to them ad nauseam?).
I cannot see where an exchange of pet hates is going to get us either, especially if we are dismissing the whole output of a particular composer. (Who has heard the whole output of Nielsen, for example?)
On every forum i have ever been on, threads like this end up being deleted.
They serve no purpose and can cause upset.
No good will come of this.
Thal
Hi Alan,
Exactly my point! People seem to be willing to dismiss a composer because they have heard a handful of works - this is why I often spring to the defence of composers others say they dislike...
Having said that, I have listened to everything Mahler wrote that has been recorded, even the 2 piano arrangement of Bruckner's 3rd Symphony (which I do actually quite like).
Also I agree that threads on this topic rarely seem to go anywhere - there is a similar one on the BBC Radio 3 MBs at the moment. :o
What a pathetic discussion this is.
How many of the critics hereon could write a note of music that anyone would want to hear? Those who can, do; those who cannot, they post their immature impressions.
I fail to grasp the "hating" response, especially with the venom occasionally shown here, any of the works mentioned, or any other piece of classical music for that matter.
I once held this group in high esteem; now some of the contributors look to me like asses.
Quote from: Jonathan on Sunday 01 August 2010, 14:51
I also try to avoid threads about music people hate - I usually get involved to defend composers I think deserve a better hearing from those who haven't heard enough to come to a considered opinion!
However, I'm afraid I have to say Mahler, yes, I know it's his anniversary this year and next and I have tried to like him but I'm sorry, his music just doesn't appeal to me. I'm much more looking forward to the (hoped for (by me!)) celebrations of Liszt's anniversary next year than those for Mahler.
I dislike the Grieg piano concerto too but only because it is overplayed, likewise with Ravel's Bolero.
So this poster doesn't care for Mahler. Does that mean Mahler's music is fair game to be vilified on this preposterous discussion? And I wonder why the Grieg concerto is "overplayed?" Could the reason be that it is a powerful, masterly evocation of a piano concerto and that people enjoy listening?
Quote from: edurban on Sunday 01 August 2010, 15:13
Although I concede that there are about 15 minutes of lovely music in each, generally speaking, I detest Madama Butterfly & Turandot. I am also sick to death of a much better opera, Carmen.
I would walk miles out of my way to avoid hearing any of them again.
David
The last 10 minutes, or so, of Act I in "Butterfly" contains measure upon measure of gorgeous, amorous music - a slow crescendo of emotions expressed by the pair of singers, which hardly is equaled elsewhere.
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Saturday 31 July 2010, 17:49
... generally I think that [Grieg]'s a greatly overrated composer who had the happy luck of being able to write good tunes.
No doubt about the melodic gift. But Grieg also commanded an instantly recognizable harmonic vocabulary that (here agreeing with Alan's view) reached its highwater mark in some of the shorter works -- Lyric Pieces and especially the chromatic and modal settings of folk tunes, opp. 66 and 73. Ask Delius if Grieg was overrated... And consider Debussy's reviews of Grieg, which, though not uncritical, indicate that Grieg was an influence Debussy paid attention to in the 1890s. Beyond the short works, anyone who has not listened to the third violin sonata or first string quartet lately may raise their estimation of Grieg by so doing.
That said, I agree, Mark, that many works by the later 19th century Germanic composers I've learned about through this forum have aged better (for me) than Grieg has. (Not to mention that I've enjoyed Winter Legends at least 10 times since the last time I put on Grieg's concerto.)
I do ask myself, though, whether my perspective on the once-radical anti-academic or extra-academic stance of a Grieg, MacDowell, or especially Balakirev and company is determined more by the cultural cycle I live in than it is by the music itself.
Quote from: wunderkind on Sunday 01 August 2010, 18:46
What a pathetic discussion this is.
How many of the critics hereon could write a note of music that anyone would want to hear? Those who can, do; those who cannot, they post their immature impressions.
I once held this group in high esteem; now some of the contributors look to me like asses.
1. Agreed
2. One does not have to be able to do something oneself in order to criticise others doing it. We are all consumers and the survival of the classical music world is dependent on our likes and dislikes whether we are asses or not.
3. I still hold this group in high esteem, but as i said before, no good will come out of this thread. I think perhaps you might be taking it a little too seriously.
Thal
O.K. It seemed to me that this topic might have been a bit of harmless fun, but clearly I was mistaken.
One of the precious things about this Forum is that it avoids descending into the sort of mud-slinging which characterises so many others. So for good or ill, I'm closing down this topic before things go any further.
Can I ask, please, that if you strongly disagree with something which has been posted, you do so in a temperate and well-mannered way? You may think it prissy, it might be old-fashioned, but it's the way we do things here.