Unsung Composers

The Music => Recordings & Broadcasts => Topic started by: brendangcarroll on Friday 09 August 2019, 17:58

Title: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: brendangcarroll on Friday 09 August 2019, 17:58
https://www.chandos.net/products/catalogue/CHAN%205220

John Wilson has revived the Sinfonia of London as a recording orchestra, with hand picked players, in this initial release - an all-Korngold album

The actual CD is not released in the shops until the middle of September but (as you can see here) it is already possible to download the recording directly from the Chandos website.

If you click on the small link to each movement, you can hear a few minutes of each track without purchase, to get a flavour of the recording. I think the Scherzo is possibly the fastest that it has ever been on records - Korngold loved a fast tempo and would love it!

Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: Alan Howe on Friday 09 August 2019, 19:48
Thanks. Think I'll just wait and see whether this is a necessary purchase. There are, after all, several really fine recordings of the Symphony, e.g. Welser-Möst/Philadelphia, Marc Albrecht/StrasbourgPO, Previn/LSO, etc.

You are right, though. Looks as though John Wilson is pretty swift (throughout, actually) - and he's a whizz at this corner of the repertoire, so...
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: MartinH on Saturday 10 August 2019, 03:02
Well, it's Korngold and of course I'll get it, despite having every other version out there. Even his film music is recorded enough. If Chandos needs ideas, how about this? Last evening I was entertained with an odd old Hammer film, The Four Sided Triangle, with a terrific score by Malcolm Arnold. Enough Korngold, how about some movie music from 1950s British SciFi  and horror.
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: Alan Howe on Thursday 19 September 2019, 16:56
This is definitely a necessary purchase! I've never heard a conductor and orchestra tear into the music like this. And the playing is stupendous - especially from the strings. They're almost Philadelphia-like.

I'd be interested to know how close Wilson is to the score's tempo markings. If he's close, then every performance up till now has been too slow...
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: MartinH on Friday 20 September 2019, 00:57
I've been living with this recording for a week now and it is terrific. The conducting, the playing and the Chandos SACD sound - all superb. It's a ferociously difficult score - but the players he got for this new orchestra are completely on top of it. If this were the only recording of the work I could have, it would not be a bad thing. Odd, isn't it, that in all these years with so many recordings of the symphony, few big names (Franz Welser-Most and Previn) have taken it up. The Kempe can be ignored as far as I'm concerned. Those cuts were really ill-advised. Wilson definitely moves the thing along quickly - there are tempo indications in Italian in the score, but no metronome markings. Dare we hope for more Korngold from Wilson? Or maybe turn his attention to another symphony by a film composer that could really use a new recording: Bernard Herrmann's?
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: Alan Howe on Friday 20 September 2019, 08:17
<<Despite the ensemble's heritage, Wilson says there are no plans to record soundtracks though: 'We have very clear aims, which is to make gramophone records – which I know is a sort of old fashioned concept – we're just very, very slowly and steadily hoping to build up a catalogue of interesting records.' The next release, due early 2020 and already recorded, will be of French orchestral works by Chabrier, Ibert, Debussy, Saint-Saëns, Duruflé and Ravel.>>
https://www.gramophone.co.uk/classical-music-news/john-wilson-revives-the-sinfonia-of-london (https://www.gramophone.co.uk/classical-music-news/john-wilson-revives-the-sinfonia-of-london)
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: brendangcarroll on Thursday 26 September 2019, 17:28
Though there are no metronome markings in the score, there is a unique private recording on acetates (unissued but I do have a tape of it) of Korngold playing the entire work on the piano as a guide to tempi, for Vladimir Golschsmann, who was supposed to conduct the US premiere in 1955 (it was cancelled when he broke his arm - his 'conducting' arm!).

John Wilson is very close indeed to Korngold's preferred tempi.
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: Alan Howe on Thursday 26 September 2019, 21:05
That's good to know - thanks.
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: MartinH on Friday 27 September 2019, 05:19
Now there's a recording that should be issued! Or at least put on Youtube.
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: semloh on Friday 27 September 2019, 08:53
I agree, Martin. I wonder if there are any legal or ethical impediments, given that it's a 'private recording' ... Brendan?

John Wilson is so full of energy and initiative, and I love his conducting. His longstanding love of this type of music always shines through. He also seems to develop a strong rapport with orchestras, and this surely underlies his success with this new venture.
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: brendangcarroll on Saturday 28 September 2019, 21:44
The rights to Korngold's private recording rest with his estate. My tape was a gift from his late son George some 40 years ago, but with the strict proviso that I not copy it or issue it commercially, and I gave him my word.

Call me old fashioned but I have stuck to that promise. If the Korngold Estate ever decides to issue the recording, I will of course post details here!
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: Alan Howe on Saturday 28 September 2019, 21:54
Quite right too.
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: ewk on Sunday 29 September 2019, 16:25
Let's hope the Korngold estate will decide to publish it at some point. And if it's only to hear more of Korngold's fantastic piano playing... I absolutely love the 20 minutes of his party improvisations available on YouTube!
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: semloh on Friday 04 October 2019, 07:44
Thanks for your response, Brendan. Fully agree with your position, of course.
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: Alan Howe on Thursday 21 May 2020, 13:16
Oh, dear: David Hurwitz savages this recording:
https://www.classicstoday.com/review/video-review-pointless-korngold-from-wilson-and-the-sinfonia-of-london/ (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/video-review-pointless-korngold-from-wilson-and-the-sinfonia-of-london/)

Basically, he says the Symphony's too quick, it lacks colour, the scherzo is a scramble and the pick-up orchestra are just doing a sight-reading job. Perhaps that's how it sounds to those used to slower, more luxuriant performances?

I'm reminded of Hurwitz's reaction to Neeme Järvi's account of Raff 5 when that came out (when compared to, say, Bernard Herrmann's).
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: Gareth Vaughan on Thursday 21 May 2020, 14:46
Funnily enough, I don't care what Hurvitz thinks! And I never have cared.
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: Kevin on Thursday 21 May 2020, 14:53
What on earth is up with the video reviews? is that a new trend now?
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: Alan Howe on Thursday 21 May 2020, 15:03
QuoteFunnily enough, I don't care what Hurvitz thinks! And I never have.

Nor me. For myself, I think both points of view have merit, though. Clearly there is support for Wilson's swifter view in Korngold's playing of the entire work as a guide to tempi for conductor Vladimir Golschsmann; however, the opposing view might be that there is a difference between how an orchestral work might be played on the piano and how it might turn out when played by a full orchestra.

Much as I appreciate Wilson's 'cleaning up' of the work, I would probably take another performance to my desert island. In the end, though, I don't think one has to trash Wilson in order to prefer an alternative. I like Klemperer in the Eroica, but Norrington is wonderful too...
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: Gareth Vaughan on Thursday 21 May 2020, 16:10
QuoteI don't think one has to trash Wilson in order to prefer an alternative.

Quite. Very succinctly put.
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: Gareth Vaughan on Thursday 21 May 2020, 16:11
QuoteWhat on earth is up with the video reviews?

I think it is lazy.
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: Alan Howe on Thursday 21 May 2020, 18:03
Agreed. A written review is much to be preferred. The video is a thorough waste of time.
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: hyperdanny on Monday 25 May 2020, 09:27
in the channel's presentation, Hurwitz says it's just a supplement to the written reviews.
I have always been ambivalent towards him..sometimes I get the impression the he's so excoriating just because he wants to "épater le bourgeois" at all costs.
That said, he's a voice to be reckoned with..and then one makes his own opinion.
In the case in point, I won't buy the Wilson because what I read here (corroborated by the short samples) convinced me that his treament of the symphony is the opposite of what I like..my favorite is the Previn, which is dark and very deliberate.
The Welser-Most is not bad, I like it too as a slightly lighter , more cinematic view...but I just cannot see this symphony as fleet and lean.
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: regriba on Monday 25 May 2020, 12:11
Yes, I agree that sometimes he seems to trash a recording just because he thinks the site needs another "CD from hell" review. The premise of these reviews seems to be that there is only one correct way to play a piece of music, and since the reviewer knows what that is, he/she is free to trash away. In other words, raising your own preferences to absolute standards. It seems to me that this is a kind of "old-school" way of reviewing (at least to judge from the writings of critics from the past like, say, Hanslick, Peterson-Berger and Virgil Thomson), whereas the approach of quite a few critics today is that there is room for more than one view on the performance of a work.

That also seems to me to be the case here. I knew and liked the Korngold symphony from the Downes recording on Chandos, but I have to say I was immediately gripped by the excitement of the new Wilson version. I'll probably choose Wilson more often from now on, but that doesn't mean I will never listen to Downes again. I find it a fine, coherent, purposeful performance. As stated earlier in this thread, it shouldn't be necessary to trash one performance just because you prefer another.
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: Alan Howe on Monday 25 May 2020, 15:51
I think that's got to be the approach to take here.

For myself the only occasion when I genuinely feel like trashing a recording is when some form of technical shortcoming is evident, e.g. a violinist's intonation or a singer's wobble. In the case of the latter problem, unfortunately, trashing is more tempting than ever these days, especially in Wagner, Richard Strauss and later composers in that tradition.
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: TerraEpon on Tuesday 26 May 2020, 02:26
Slightly off topic but what bothers me more is the scoring system -- it's built to assume that everyone automatically would enjoy the music and thus a low 'performance' quality is just that....but in the cases where he doesn't like the music it still gets that. So a CD that's has a fantastic performance will get a low score just because it dares to be music he thinks isn't worthy (and the general underlying attitude that anything that doesn't fall into that is clearly good so there's rarely actual mention of the music itself, especially if it's something more well known).
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: raffite33 on Wednesday 27 May 2020, 17:35
I guess the one thing I used to like about Hurwitz was that he was often very specific about what he liked or disliked.  That said, I always found it a little hard to deal with his overemphasis on percussion and his eagerness to trash whatever the British critics liked, and, lately, he's pummeling recordings that everybody else praises, including some I'd say were beyond reproach. 

The video reviews are less specific and a bit repetitive and rambling.  I thought it was telling that, in reviewing the Korngold, he didn't even mention the Albrecht on Pentatone, which he gave a 10/10.  Seemed like a very careless omission.
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: Bruckner1896 on Wednesday 27 May 2020, 21:08
I like Mr. Hurwitz's video commentaries and reviews.  I challenge anyone else to do a superior job with such an approach.  And yes, I noticed that he does not mention the March Albrecht recording on the Pentatone label, but I do not think that these video presentations are designed to be all-encompassing.  He is testing the waters for this sort of review and commentary, and I think his speaking and presentation skills more or less match his writing skills -- for most commentators, this is a difficult little feat to achieve directly facing a camera, let alone just in an audio format.  His overall breezy and relaxed approach on camera is balanced with pointed little barbs of slash-and-burn critiques.

While I personally prefer reviews in writing, Mr. Hurwitz has more than enough experience with that to fully justify his forays into this new approach -- and I believe he will continue presenting them because, if nothing else, they generate a reasonable number of views on YouTube given the niche subject matter, as well as written responses beneath every video he has posted -- and he even responds to many of the comments.  He obviously enjoys the repartee, and I must admit, I enjoy reading the comments.  Whatever his oversights, Mr. Hurwitz's knowledge is extensive and impressive, even though he thoroughly disliked my local orchestra's performance of Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky cantata on the Reference Recordings label.  He gave that performance a 6/9, with which I disagree, but I understand his overall perspective on the performance and interpretation under our music director Thierry Fischer. 

And I do love Mr. Hurwitz's contrarian takes on many laudatory reviews in Gramophone, BBC Music Magazine, and MusicWeb International; he supports his critiques with relevant information in the vast majority of cases.  As I always say, if you read enough reviews, most often someone will thoroughly dislike the performances and interpretations under review, and someone will argue that the release in question is the best recording of that particular composition ever released.  While one can legitimately say that there is some sort of positive critical consensus around the John Wilson recording of Korngold's Symphony with the Sinfonia of London, I find Mr. Hurwitz's comment that that ensemble is a thoroughly professional "pick up ensemble" that is "sight-reading" and can sight-read anything to be most interesting and provocative.
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: Alan Howe on Wednesday 27 May 2020, 22:24
QuoteI find Mr. Hurwitz's comment that that ensemble is a thoroughly professional "pick up ensemble" that is "sight-reading" and can sight-read anything to be most interesting and provocative.

Indeed. But what on earth does it mean? And is it even true? John Wilson is, after all, a brilliant orchestra-builder, as his Prom concerts over the years have proved. I thought the orchestral response was absolutely fabulous on the disc in question. Hurwitz may not like the interpretation, which is his right, but to question the orchestra in that way seems to me to be a cheap shot.
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: hyperdanny on Thursday 28 May 2020, 11:22
I have to say that at least 2 videos in DH's new channel are proof that, when he's on his best behaviour, he can be tremendously interesting and erudite.
The 2 videos "why there are so many bad Bruckner performances around" and "repertoire analysis Bruckner 5" are just a delight.
I also happen to agree with everything, but that's not the point.
Back to the Korngold: in the newest issue of Fanfare , Arthur Lintgen reviews the Korngold/Wilson.
I would sum it up as "qualified praise": he finds the fast tempi generally refreshing and interesting, but thinks that Wilson went too far with the first movement, robbing it of gravitas and muscle. He has no issue with the orchestral performance, but all in all he will continue to prefer his current favorite version (Albrecht)
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: Ilja on Thursday 28 May 2020, 20:24
Quote from: Gareth Vaughan on Thursday 21 May 2020, 16:11
QuoteWhat on earth is up with the video reviews?

I think it is lazy.


It is a foray into a very different medium, and it caters to a different crowd. That makes it the opposite of lazy. Personally, I think it suits Hurwitz's style better than his traditional forms, to be honest (and I never minded those as much as others here, apparently).
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: Gareth Vaughan on Thursday 28 May 2020, 21:54
Well, that's just me, I'm afraid. I would rather read a book than watch television any day.
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: Alan Howe on Thursday 28 May 2020, 22:21
I agree with Gareth. I'd also rather read musical criticism as well. It's all to do with the fact that the printed word can be more easily reviewed and weighed by the reader, whereas video is essentially transient. Video also takes far more time to say much the same thing than the printed word, which makes it a thorough waste of the viewer's time.

Anyway, I suggest that we now attend to what Hurwitz is actually saying about Wilson's recording rather than his video presentations.

Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: eschiss1 on Tuesday 03 November 2020, 17:25
surprised a little that Chandos has now recorded the symphony-twice-.
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: Alan Howe on Tuesday 03 November 2020, 17:46
I'm not. Wilson is box office gold here in the UK. Chandos no doubt think they can make a mint out of his recordings. And the Downes recording is getting on for thirty years old...
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: hyperdanny on Friday 13 November 2020, 09:16
I confess that I still have to "get" maestro Wilson...the (admittedly few) recordings that I have heard seemed to me "efficient", but oimpersonal and in general too fast.
But maybe one day I'll see the light.
What I will NEVER get is Chandos repertoire policy, especially in the last few years.
It seems that when they get ahold of some respected conductor , or some new exciting one, all they can produce is endless dupiication, from other labels but especially (and that's what baffles me most) cloning themselves.
They're doing it with sir Andrew Davis : he's basically redoing the same Elgar and Vaughan Williams he already did with excellent results for Teldec.
They're doing it with John Storgards (if memory serves, Chandos has now 3 Nielsen complete cycles)
And now the new hot British guy...Korngold (Downes, yes it's old, but it's digital, and it's good) , and the 1.000.000th Respighi (and their own Tortelier's was better, and Copland ..who needed it?).
All this, with all the repertoire that needs to be recorded and heard.
All this, with funding for recordings more and more difficult to find, especially in the arts-starving covid economy.
This is exactly the kind of policy that brought the industry to collapse in the 90's.
Sorry for the rant, but I love Chandos, and I just can't understand.
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: Alan Howe on Friday 13 November 2020, 09:54
You're right about the Chandos/repertoire issue. Too much duplication. As for John Wilson, he's very, very good at what he does. I just hope he sticks with the lighter end of the repertoire.
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: TerraEpon on Friday 13 November 2020, 13:29
Quote from: hyperdanny on Friday 13 November 2020, 09:16

All this, with funding for recordings more and more difficult to find, especially in the arts-starving covid economy.


You just answered your own question here. Despite people like us, MOST record sales come from more popular music. Another recording of Beethoven symphonies is almost sure to outsell a recording of Raff or Korngold or whoever.
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: hyperdanny on Friday 13 November 2020, 14:33
I understand and share your point in general, but I don't think it applies to the specific issue. (Chandos).
What they are duplicating (or even triplicating) is not more Beethoven of Brahms, it is stuff that, at best, is in the second tier of commercial appeal: Nielsen , Korngold, Copland, Elgar, RVW (which I worship, especially the latter, but let's face it, outside the UK they're superficially known).
AND, and that's my core point, they're cloning (and hurting) themselves,
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: Alan Howe on Friday 13 November 2020, 18:01
I think they're probably selling a lot of CDs. It's more likely to be us who will be hurting, not Chandos...
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: Ilja on Friday 13 November 2020, 19:25
Quote from: TerraEpon on Friday 13 November 2020, 13:29
You just answered your own question here. Despite people like us, MOST record sales come from more popular music. Another recording of Beethoven symphonies is almost sure to outsell a recording of Raff or Korngold or whoever.


I have to disagree here. While there is much more general interest in Beethoven than there is in Raff, a new Beethoven cycle is also near to impossible to market since the competition is so fierce. A Raff recording, on the other hand, will always be noticed by a community of dedicated collectors. That group amounts to about 1500 people worldwide, but that can be enough.


What we're seeing is music executives still acting on impulses that have become obsolete some time ago.
Title: Re: New Recording of Korngold's Symphony in F# and other works
Post by: eschiss1 on Friday 13 November 2020, 21:26
So long as they're aiming at that 1500, how about Striegler, or W Taubert ; 4 + each, Romantic/ e2c...